I’ve made a lot of questionable decisions in my lifetime. I am a 21-year-old man who goes to One Direction concerts. I sleep in a bed covered in orange dust from off-brand Cheetos puffs, and, last weekend, I had a conversation about lasagna-like vaginas with a famous drag queen. But all of that is just water under the bridge compared to the poor decisions I made while choosing my best friends.

Last week, two of my best friends in the entire world both asked for the same thing for Christmas. They both wanted a Blu-ray Disc copy of “Mission Impossible: Rogue Nation,” the most recent film in Tom Cruise’s Mission Impossible series.

I found this problematic for two reasons. One, my pretentious friends only watch critically acclaimed movies that are going to be nominated for multiple Oscars, so I’m sad they broke their “quality-movies-only” rule for a Mission Impossible flick. And two, I’m mad they’re asking me to financially support a Tom-Cruise-led feature.

Besides acting and jumping on couches, Cruise is best known for being the face of the Church of Scientology. And unfortunately, Scientology and its members are the scum of the earth. And because of his heavy involvement in the church, I refuse to watch or support anything with Tom Cruise in it.

Scientology isn’t a religion; it’s a cult. In order to be involved in the church, you have to give increasing amounts of money, and once you’re in, you’re turned into a prisoner. Members of the church aren’t allowed to leave or they face constant surveillance and harassment, according to the Huffington Post. The church also takes children away from their mothers and abuses its members.

“Going Clear,” a documentary that highlighted the immorality of Scientology and focused on Cruise’s involvement, premiered last March to rave reviews. The movie gave a comprehensive picture of what was wrong with Scientology.

Cruise was never asked questions about the film, even though he did a press tour for “Rouge Nation” a few months later. The headline-making documentary and his involvement with the church were universally ignored during his interviews.

I’m almost sure Tom Cruise has a cyanide pill hidden in his cheek during every interview just in case he is asked about Scientology. Instead of answering, he can just die so he doesn’t actually admit the truth.

It’ll probably never come to that though. I’m positive there’s someone on Cruise’s team that monitors every question and prohibits any talk about his religion, so I can’t really blame the interviewers. I can blame Cruise though. It’s cool if he wants to be involved in a violent cult – that’s his business. You do you. Be human garbage all you want. Just don’t ignore your involvement.

If Cruise wants to be a respected figure, he needs to come out with his position on the church, why he is involved in it and why he chooses to ignore the church’s abusive nature.

It’s not like Cruise is just one minor member of the church. He is the celebrity poster child for the church. Former Scientologist and “King of Queens” star Leah Remini said Cruise was a “pillar to the church” and she had to donate $1 million to the church just to meet Cruise. She also said the church members mistreated Cruise’s daughter Suri and that she was written up for misbehaving at his wedding and was forced to apologize to his then-wife, Katie Holmes.

Tom Cruise isn’t alone though. Immoral celebrities are everywhere; from Sean Penn to Chris Brown to Mark Wahlberg. I’m not saying Cruise is on the same level of trash as those men, but he’s still trash that needs to be avoided. Cruise is synonymous with Scientology, so if Cruise wants to keep being a public figure, he has to address the church’s poor behavior. He has no excuse to ignore its violent tendencies. So until he explains himself and leaves the church, my friends aren’t getting what they want for Christmas.

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  1. Amy Forsythe
    December 1, 2015 at 8:11 pm

    Thank you for this article. The more the public is informed of this dangerous and criminal organization the better. I have no problem with anyone’s beliefs. In this country we are free to express our religious feelings however we like. You want to believe in Lord Xenu, more power to you. That is not what this is about. It’s about child abuse, human right violations, extorting money from members, forced abortions, harrassment of critics, and the list goes on and on. Oh and one more thing you need to know about this organization. They lie. They lie continually about anything and everything.

    • Mary
      December 2, 2015 at 8:27 am

      They lie because they think the church and david miscavige should be allowed to commit felony assault, extortion, tear apart families, etc; because it’s “the greatest good” for all.

      • December 3, 2015 at 8:27 pm

        People who have witnessed criminal activities should report them to the appropriate authorities. People who have never witnessed such things cannot be expected to do so and therefore they cannot be rightly called liars.

        • Captain MustSavage
          December 5, 2015 at 4:02 am

          What would happen to a scientologist who involved the police? How able are scientologists to take other scientologist to court? I believe there are policies about this. Please enlighten us.

          • December 5, 2015 at 4:51 pm

            Scientologists have taken other Scientologists to court, not that it is any of your business.

          • Captain MustSavage
            December 5, 2015 at 5:09 pm

            Really? What are the details so we can all check on your veracity?

          • December 6, 2015 at 3:31 am

            Apparently you are ignorant of all policy. Plus, People are entitled to privacy. You are looking for people to hunt down and attack or try to lure into the bunker. Meh

          • Captain MustSavage
            December 6, 2015 at 9:29 am

            You were pressuring Paulette Cooper Noble to supply evidence of her claims up thread, elle. What’s good for the goose is good for the gander. Pony up your evidence.
            And, BTW, who’s the paranoid one now? “…looking for people to hunt down…” You taunted Mrs Noble about paranoia and scientologists “cackling at her door” and here you are all paranoid. Perhaps everything you accuse others of, you are yourself?

          • December 6, 2015 at 10:27 am

            Just prove she ever participated in a Church service–not too much to ask since she used that lie, er, claim, to launch an agenda she had in place before her bogus claim to have done anything in the Church.

          • Bob Crouch
            December 6, 2015 at 11:34 am

            Let’s see YOU prove it!

          • Captain MustSavage
            December 6, 2015 at 12:13 pm

            What’s your beef with her? Do you believe the church of Scientology had a right to frame her for bomb threats?

          • Bob Crouch
            December 6, 2015 at 11:50 am

            For an interesting example of scientology “justice,” just google “Carmen Llywelyn.” It’s an enlightening tale of how scientology tried to beat her into submission during her divorce from scientology B-list celebrity Jason Lee.

          • Bob Crouch
            December 6, 2015 at 11:46 am

            The consequences are clear: Since we are talking about “sea org” members here, they may be imprisoned at their leadership’s whim, for indefinite periods of time. They may, make that “will” be subjected to physical assaults and emotional abuse. No mystery there, as abundant evidence continues to show.

        • Bob Crouch
          December 5, 2015 at 6:54 pm

          Interestingly, the “Inch Wives” claimed on CNN/Anderson Cooper to have observed numerous assaults at Gold Base. However, they also admitted that they never reported a single one of them. Not even to Miscavige, let alone to the police. When Anderson Cooper found these to be rather strange work place conditions (in a “spiritual headquarters,” one might add), they ran out of replies and went for the old scientology stand-by: self-righteous indignation.

          And so it would appear–from the mouths of scientologists in good standing, at the highest levels–that the scientology culture is definitely a “different” one. One where violent crimes do in fact go unreported.

          • December 6, 2015 at 3:30 am

            Rinder was observed committing assaults. Everyone happy to see him dumped.

          • Ben Franklin
            December 6, 2015 at 8:41 am

            If Rinder was observed committing assaults why wasn’t he never arrested and put in jail? Could it be that you were lied to just to hate Mike Rinder? There are a lot of SPs in your Church lie constantly through their teeth in desperation to destroy someone’s reputation just because he dared speak the truth about the abuses in Scientology at the highest level.

          • December 6, 2015 at 8:58 am

            All the hideous accusations you hurl at the Church and why do not the gahzillions of accusers file gahzillions of charges?

          • Ben Franklin
            December 6, 2015 at 9:16 am

            You act like the Church has never been sued before. How often have you have seen a Scientologist suing another Scientologist. Why do you think Scientologists don’t sue each other or prefer not to involve the police when a church member has committed a crime? Why do cases of rape and Child molestation by church members get swept under the rug? When I think you know why, but of course you can not be honest and say the truth.

          • Ben Franklin
            December 6, 2015 at 9:40 am

            Just remember many of the former members that you now hurl insults at were just big supporters of the Church like you. They only difference is that they have personally experienced the dark side of the Church and realized how cruel and deceitful it is. There a lot of people who dedicated many years of their lives to Scientology only to be disappointed in the end and left with a sour taste in their mouth. Clear is just a word, there are no real clears. There are no people on this planet with OT powers. Even LRH never had any OT powers, and that’s a fact. LRH suffered every human problem you can imagine, from failed marriages, poor familial relationships, illnesses, debts, untruthfulness, anger issues. LRH Eventually died a lonely death in a small remote ranch like a small being with none of his family members at his side. That is your idol,and the person whom you model your life and behavior after. There is nothing in Scientology, it is just a big money making fraud hidden under the veil of spirituality. All the wins you have received in Scientology,you would have received anyway without Scientology. Today there are millions and millions of non-Scientologists living happily, creating, and thriving.

          • Bob Crouch
            December 6, 2015 at 11:41 am

            You accused Mike Rinder of assault earlier–as usual, with no proof. Where are those charges?

            11 scientologists went to prison–including the cult founder’s wife–for crimes against the American people. Among the crimes discovered were the crimes against Ms. Cooper, the upstanding journalist that you so detest. That’s a lot better than “charges.” That’s PROOF of how the cult operates.

          • sundaygirl
            December 6, 2015 at 12:07 pm

            There are currently several lawsuits in process against your organization and its front groups like Narconon. Not to mention what just happened in Belgium and Russia.

          • Bob Crouch
            December 6, 2015 at 11:00 am

            Pretty funny. As your partner in cult shilling fettle points out: If it hasn’t been reported it did not happen. So:

            1. When was Rinder ever reported?
            2. What does it say about the cult that they let this happen?

            Then again, while there is NOTHING but YOUR word for the Rinder assaults (and you lack the access anyway), there are scores of high-ranking scientologists who will attest to the fact that cult leader Miscavige abuses his executives verbally and physically (of course, only in the presence of goons as he is a coward with the build of a 6-th grade girl). NOT ONE of these former “church” execs has EVER implicated Rinder.

            Plus, your intentions become abundantly clear when you claim that Rinder was “dumped.” That is PROVABLY a lie! You’re revealing that you will say ANYTHING to lie for the cult!

  2. Avid Miskaridge
    December 1, 2015 at 10:51 pm

    Scientology’s full-fledged hatred campaigns volleyed at pharmaceutical companies and physicians, specifically psychiatrists treating mental illnesses has revealed a very telling weakness. As with any cult, mind control is a central tenet in Scientology and the threat of its reversal is likely to register at the top of the fear scale for its established membership. No more control, spells trouble for funding this large machine. It has always been an ego-driven venture that has been allowed to fester into what we now see as the true face of Scientology–to keep the mind-control active and discourage free thinking for the soul purpose of money. Let’s continue to expose the crimes against humanity that have been propagated and condoned by their cognitively dissonant, Stockholm syndrome affected members. People know the evils of Scientology which is why we have to continue to let the public know about their front groups; which are much like conglomerates that appear to have *no* connection to its larger umbrella organization but are controlled by their board. Scientology is a business, not a religion. The IRS does not have the power to anoint religions, even though it erred in doing so in 1993.

    • C.P. Garcia
      December 2, 2015 at 7:49 am

      The controlling legal principle is that the people, not their government, have the jurisdiction to define the institutions by which religious activities are administered or carried out. However, the IRS is the only government body that sets to define what is religion for tax exempt purposes. This is set in the IRS manual, Section There are 14 points of test to what is defined a religion. A group does NOT need to meet all 14, but needs a majority of them to reach the IRS definition. So. While the government (Congress) has not made laws that dictate how to define a religion or church, the IRS pretty much does it for us. So they really do have the power to to “anoint” religion. But really they only do so by groups hitting most of those 14 points. Scientology hits most/if not all of the 14 points. Some would be questionable though. The late 80s/early 90s were one of the strongest times for Scientology which I think helped them gain status ..before the Internet exposed many of their practices. Mormonism really started very similar to Scientology (some would say both started by con men) but over the years has “normalized” the existence of the Church. This is something I thought Scientology would do, but I think the Internet ruined that for them. The Mormons lucked out by a good 100 years.. lol

      • Mary
        December 2, 2015 at 8:32 am

        Yes. I do believe he was the perfect candidate of an alter boy – oops, I mean celebrity – to be groomed by david miscavige.

        • C.P. Garcia
          December 2, 2015 at 9:55 am

          I don’t get what that has anything to do with what I wrote or why you replied to me..

      • One Human
        December 2, 2015 at 10:30 am

        If you research the many restrictive and retaliatory tenets of the “religion”, normalization is not in its DNA.

        • C.P. Garcia
          December 2, 2015 at 10:59 am

          I very much know about the practices/beliefs/actions of Scientology.. Agreed in its current state.. yes.. “Normalization” is not really possible. Eliminations of most all HCOBs would be needed would be just one thing… People will point of the Sea Org has having to go.. but its comparisons to other “Religious Orders” make it passable .. Nuns give their “salary” back to the Church.. and in essence have no income. They do MANY jobs for the Church and work long hours for nothing (Just as the Sea Org does)…..Nuns have been forced to have abortions, take birth control and been sexualy abused by Priests and missionaries without legal action ever taken place (admitted by the Vatican). So point being.. the “abuses” that occur in the Sea Org do happen within other religions and again don’t “discredit” it any more then the rest of them….We often look at Scientology has being “strange”, but its first 60 years are NOT that different then how many other “religions” started just all this occurred in “Modern” times…. Actually. A lot less death and destruction comparably. lol. I am not endorsing any of what they do.. just pointing out it doesn’t make them not a “religion” by IRS or by basic comparisons to other small and large worldwide religions..

          • Captain MustSavage
            December 2, 2015 at 11:34 am

            Abusive behaviors result from Scientology policies, written organisational policies. This means that the human rights abuses that occur in Scientology occur EVERYWHERE this organisation exists, not as a result of some bad people being in the job in some places. For example, Scientology has a POLICY once called ‘fair game’ that directs its members to harm others by any means possible and argued in a Texas courtroom THIS YEAR that its harassment behaviors were religious free speech. Take a look at the top commenter here. This lady was subject to the most horrific abuse by Scientology as a result of the fair game policy. Harassment of people who tell the truth about Scientology happened then and it’s happening now. The SP handling policy also results in ongoing complete estrangement, which they call disconnection, of whole families merely because someone begins to have doubts or expresses concern about Scientology. There is audio online of a woman being declared an SP for watching Leah Remini on dancing with the Stars. She clearly says to the ethics officer ‘you realise my husband will divorce me?’ You may argue that shunning is a common practice of religions and that therefore this makes Scientology’s behavior the same as all the others. The difference is that the religions that practised shunning did so in the Middle Ages and those who practise it now, like the Amish, still live as though they’re back there. I have little tolerance for the ‘all religions are the same’ apologists for Scientology.

          • C.P. Garcia
            December 2, 2015 at 12:08 pm

            Which is why I said most of HCOBs would need to go.. as all those practices you spoke of..(Fair Game, Dead Agent, etc.) are in them..

          • One Human
            December 2, 2015 at 11:48 am

            The Sea Org is but one facet, one which consistently and throughout its history, has kept members, including children, in inhumane, abusive, and prison like conditions.
            As to the IRS, aside from C of S not providing proof of tangible social betterment, C of S has used its tax free income to employ private investigators to stalk, harass, and intimidate former members and critics. Add to that the vexatious litigation that also has been a hallmark of the organization.
            The dangerous quackery that is done in the name of LRH Inc. should have been extinguished in the 1950s. To even suggest a kinder, gentler form of Scientology is possible, much less acceptable, is patently absurd.

          • C.P. Garcia
            December 2, 2015 at 12:15 pm

            Again.. I am very much aware of their practices.. Even in the 20th Century.. the Catholic Church and its members have done much worse(during WW2, Viatman, and Rawanda 94)… All that you speak of has never resulted in any action by the FBI.. After many investigations.. would would be the difference..
            The actual practice of Scientology is often no more “quackery” then many other religions. Example.. “refusing medical attention because they can pray away sickness”.. Say hello to “Jehovah’s Witnesses” and blood transfusions.. I can point out other religions with MANY more members then Scientology that practice “quackery”.. So again.. these things do NOT differentiate Scientology from the practices of MANY other religions.. small and large..

          • One Human
            December 2, 2015 at 12:43 pm

            Dianetics, the precursor to Scientology, was promoted as a mental health therapy that promised ludicrously unobtainable benefits, to the point the AMA expressed concerns. And while quackery EXISTS in other religions, this one is founded on it.

            There is a great series of articles at Tony Ortega DOT ORG related to the death of Lisa McPherson while under the care and direction of Scientology, a case that clearly illustrates the dangers of essentially practicing medicine without a license or training.

            As to Jehovah’s Witnesses, they refuse actual blood transfusions, but have been instrumental in the development of blood alternatives.

            You claim to be “very much aware of their practices”, yet seem compelled to minimize the harms that are evidenced by hundreds of personal accounts.

            Sorry C. P. Garcia, I have been rather polite up to now….you are full of $#!*.

          • C.P. Garcia
            December 2, 2015 at 1:00 pm

            What part of I know all about Scientology do you not understand?? I am not minimizing anything.. Where did I do that? Catholic Clergy were involved with the death of 300k-600k deaths in WW2.. Just again pointing out much LARGER atrocities committed by much LARGER religions.. This does not MINIMIZE anything.. Its called a point of comparison.. even in the 20th Century.. Catholics have been responsible for FAR more deaths then Scientology has members.. does this mean nothing to you?

            Not sure how I am full of shit.. when I am pointing out factual events.. and to say other Religions aren’t founded on “quackery”.. that is one of the funniest things I have heard all year… Christian Science even pre-dates Scientology.. who was founded on “sickness is an illusion that can be corrected by prayer alone”.. so yeah.. again.. just offering comparisons here.. not minimizing harm.. But the overwhelming majority of people who practice ANY of these religions do not come into “harm”.. no matter how many “accounts” you have..

          • One Human
            December 2, 2015 at 1:23 pm

            I’ll leave the Catholic history to those that are more versed in it, though I do also find those atrocities reprehensible.
            These indeed are but a few of the many evils in the world, but this one strikes a particular nerve for those that have been victimized by it, and those that can empathize with how their own life would have been directly impacted by it had circumstances been different.
            Your assertions strike me as odd given the article presented here. Do you do the same when FLDS, pedophiles, or other dangerous groups have articles written about them?

          • C.P. Garcia
            December 2, 2015 at 1:29 pm

            Huh? I started this conversation about pointing how how the IRS DOES have the legal authority and is the only “governing” body which defines what a Religion is in the USA. Then stated that the beginnings of many religions are FULL of dubious activities and treatment of their own faithful. This was a discussion on Religions.. and their actions.. so not sure how “pedophiles” and the like are even mentioned in the same topic. You said you didn’t think Scientology could be normalized..I said there are ways it could be (a watering down of basic tenants has happened in many religions.), and other Religions have moved on from MUCH worse to become “normalized”. I am not a FAN of any organized Religion, so when I see people try to act as if one is better then there other for this or that reason.. yes.. I will say something..

          • One Human
            December 2, 2015 at 1:53 pm

            I get your point, but I do believe this one is among the most dangerous.

          • December 3, 2015 at 1:35 pm

            IRS does not define a religion, it can only recognize one–or a church– for tax exempt purposes.

          • C.P. Garcia
            December 3, 2015 at 1:38 pm

            Point being the ONLY defining factor in the USA of what is a religion.. is if the IRS recognizes them it as one.. Anyone can call their “thing” a religion. But they don’t get the benefits of being one unless the IRS says they are one.. You didn’t read what i wrote earlier I am guessing, cause I explained all this.

          • December 3, 2015 at 1:44 pm

            The First Amendment does not have a check list to qualify. And whether a religion gets government benefits or not does not change how the congregation defines itself.

          • C.P. Garcia
            December 3, 2015 at 1:50 pm

            Again. You did not read what I wrote.. I spoke of how the Government (congress etc.) has NO mad no laws defining what a religion is.. that the only “government” organization that HAS the power to decide what IS a religion, is IRS. You cannot deny this. They have 14 points that a religion MUST meet most of them to QUALIFY as a religion in the EYES of the American government.. It is NOT just tax exemption that is GIVEN to organizations that the IRS recognizes.. There are many other benefits that Religions can partake in once they are approved..
            What a congregation defines itself as has nothing to do with what we were talking about.. The original comment by the person was that the ” IRS does not have the power to anoint religions, even though it erred in doing so in 1993″.. and I said.. IT DID and DOES have the power to ANOINT a group or church as a Religion.. and that is the one government body that does.. Again. this is fact.. and not up for “debate”..

          • December 3, 2015 at 1:53 pm

            There are more restrictions on religions than benefits.
            Before there was the IRS, there were religions. The IRS and Congress and Government cannot decide what is a religion, period.

          • C.P. Garcia
            December 3, 2015 at 1:55 pm

            Again.. What the hell are you talking about.. Nothing to do with what we were.. that’s is for sure.. If it wasn’t a big deal.. Why did David have a big show in 1993.. Saying “We Won”. You know. that even they show EVERY year .. celebrating when the IRS recognized the,.. Anyone can call themselves and PRACTICE whatever religion they WANT.. no one is denying that… We were TALKING ABOUT THE GOVERNMENT AND RELIGION.. The IRS DOES DEFINE what is a RELIGION in this country..

          • December 3, 2015 at 1:57 pm

            define yourself. Then I will do up a checklist and see if you are correct.

          • C.P. Garcia
            December 3, 2015 at 2:00 pm

            You’re not helping Scientology’s cause at all.. Let me tell you that.. lol

          • December 3, 2015 at 5:43 pm

            Just a prop for you–you are holding up well under the insane attacks of the trolls from the bunker. If you do not agree with them 110% and add your own venom, they will attack you savagely en masse. But you are giving as good as you get and not yielding ground.

          • Bob Crouch
            December 3, 2015 at 3:19 pm

            More restrictions than benefits? Not to someone scamming the system the way scientology is. Fair game, incarceration, labor laws, tax dodge. All “benefits.”

          • December 3, 2015 at 2:06 pm

            “According to the IRS manual, Section, there is a 14 point test to determine if a religious organization can qualify as a “church”.
            Scientology fulfills all 14 points. The end.

          • C.P. Garcia
            December 3, 2015 at 2:09 pm

            Are you retarded!?! I SAID THIS EXACTLY IN MY ORIGINAL POST!!!!! I WAS POINTING OUT TO SOMEONE THAT SCIENTOLOGY DID MEET the IRS criteria and I LISTED THE SECTION and everything.. again.. YOU MIGHT WANT TO READ ALL THE COMMENTS before making yourself look like a fool..

          • December 3, 2015 at 4:12 pm

            I did not misunderstand you. Each time you posted, you wrote in such a way that any reader would think the IRS decides what is a religion, period.

            As in “the only “government” organization that HAS the power to decide what IS a religion, is IRS.”

            You have degenerated into personal insults. That does not strengthen your assertions.

          • C.P. Garcia
            December 3, 2015 at 4:18 pm

            Yes you do misunderstand me.. Because again. What I said is 100% FACT AND TRUE.. Its not up for “debate”. In the USA a Religion is only recognized so BY THE GOVERNMENT if the IRS declares it so. Again this is why Scientology CELEBRATED the 1993 decision.. It mattered.. and it STILL matters for ALL Religions to have this acceptance.. And again.. We are NOT talking about the WHAT the followers of the Religion care about. Anyone can practice ANY Faith or Religion they want.. they do NOT need the Government to TELL them it is a Religion. Religion is a PERSONAL and SPIRITUAL decision and practice.. But for those Religions who want to flourish, they NEED the acceptance of Governments worldwide to recognize it, so they can get the MANY benefits this entails (not just tax exemption).

          • December 3, 2015 at 4:32 pm

            You have not been clear at every point.
            You put too much power in the hands of governments. There is an ancient battle between governments and religions. The religion does not NEED the government acceptance. That is backward putting religion at effect of government. Religion must force governments to not persecute them, force them to codify that, then force them to abide by the code. I believe our Constitution was the first document that memorialized that concept. Government, good government, needs religion.

          • C.P. Garcia
            December 3, 2015 at 4:42 pm

            Again. . you go off on to tangents about things that aren’t what we were even discussing. I don’t give the government power. I didn’t make the IRS guidlines or even support them. You are having this debate with the wrong person. I was not debating anything about Scientology or Religion. I was telling someone else that Scientology meets the IRS criteria and that they are the only Government body who makes the distinction of what they consider a religion. You then insereted yourself into the conversation with things that had nothing to do with what I said or in fact already i had already stated the exact things in Support of Religions and Scientology..

          • December 3, 2015 at 5:26 pm

            Don’t know if you realize that you rephrase your position each time you present it. That causes your statements to read as a change in your position. A rephrase = change in your assertion.

          • C.P. Garcia
            December 3, 2015 at 5:30 pm

            I feel I have to rephrase it, because you don’t seem to understand it. So I feel of I say it another way you might comprehend it. Apparently not. There has not been a change in positions as I have kept repeating the same exact postions over and over to no avail with you.. As you keep repeating back the same things I have already said with the guise of trying to educate me.

          • December 3, 2015 at 5:39 pm

            You also said this: “I started this conversation about pointing how how the IRS DOES have the legal authority and is the only “governing” body which defines what a Religion is in the USA.” This is not what you have said in other places. When you rephrase, you are not saying the same thing.

          • C.P. Garcia
            December 3, 2015 at 5:44 pm

            This is what I have said every single time.. And have stated now several times that it is a fact that is not debatable. Facts aren’t up for debate. It is the only Government agency that looks to define what is a Religion. And is the only one who can legally do so in the eyes of the Government… I don’t understand why this is so confusing for you.

          • December 3, 2015 at 6:00 pm

            I posted this: According to the IRS manual, Section, there is a 14 point test to determine if a religious organization can qualify as a “church”. There is a difference between a religion and a CHURCH. And the IRS only makes a determination on a CHURCH for purposes of being tax exempt.

            A RELIGION can organize in such a way that it forms a CHURCH. THEN the church can made application to the IRS for recognition for purpose of tax exemption.

          • C.P. Garcia
            December 3, 2015 at 6:09 pm

            Actually. I was the one who posted the IRS manual listing before you even entered the conversation. But you are also confused as to how the IRS uses the term Church.. This might help you … https://www.irs.gov/Charities-&-Non-Profits/Churches-&-Religious-Organizations/Churches–Defined

          • December 3, 2015 at 6:32 pm

            From your link: The term church is found, BUT NOT SPECIFICALLY DEFINED, in the Internal Revenue Code. With the exception of the special rules for church audits, …..The IRS generally uses a combination of these characteristics, together with other facts and circumstances, to determine whether an organization is considered a church FOR FEDERAL TAX PURPOSES.

            That is what I have been saying. Don’t know why you argue, then send me to a link that proves I have it correct and have been consistent about it.

          • C.P. Garcia
            December 3, 2015 at 6:33 pm

            Wow. You just don’t get it..

          • December 3, 2015 at 7:25 pm

            I copied/pasted straight from the link you directed me to. I don’t see what I don’t get. But never mind. This has been a good exchange because the trolls and lurkers from the bunker have a good dose of facts instead of their completely false meme about IRS and religion/church. You have corrected them so thanks for that.

            Hope your next trip to the bunker isn’t too bloodly.

          • Frodis73
            December 4, 2015 at 9:47 pm

            When dealing with elle, facts are VERY much up for debate. She worships LRH and scientology and believes that scientology is fact based.

          • C.P. Garcia
            December 5, 2015 at 9:21 am

            What I didn’t get is I was supporting most of what she was arguing with me about.. but she still wanted to argue.. lol

          • Frodis73
            December 4, 2015 at 9:45 pm

            Elle is a scientologist and will argue with you til you are blue in the face…

          • C.P. Garcia
            December 3, 2015 at 2:11 pm

            Since you don’t read… here was MY original comment.. that was FIRST comment I made on this article.. –> “The controlling legal principle is that the people, not their government, have the jurisdiction to define the institutions by which religious activities are administered or carried out. However, the IRS is the only government body that sets to define what is religion for tax exempt purposes. This is set in the IRS manual, Section There are 14 points of test to what is defined a religion. A group does NOT need to meet all 14, but needs a majority of them to reach the IRS definition. So. While the government (Congress) has not made laws that dictate how to define a religion or church, the IRS pretty much does it for us. So they really do have the power to to “anoint” religion. But really they only do so by groups hitting most of those 14 points. Scientology hits most/if not all of the 14 points.”

          • December 3, 2015 at 3:59 pm

            I cannot find where the IRS defines what is religion for tax exempt purposes. I find where the IRS decides if a church qualifies for tax exemption. One criterion is “Regular religious services” so the religion would have to exist first. Also, the IRS does not decide what is a “church” other than for the tax exempt purposes if the church applies.

            You wrote “the only “government” organization that HAS the power to decide what IS a religion, is IRS.” That is different from your original post. I cannot find that the IRS can decide what IS a religion for any reason, nor even a “church.” exempt for their own tax exempt purpose–that is narrow.

          • C.P. Garcia
            December 3, 2015 at 4:07 pm

            You need to word clear “semantics” .. The point of this was WHAT the government defines as a Religion. The only BODY that makes this distinction of WHAT is a Religion is the IRS. Once a body is defined as a Religion or Church by the IRS, its benefits are MORE then just tax exemption. As I have now said SEVERAL times.. IT doesn’t MATTER who the IRS or Government of ANY country calls a Religion. Any group of followers can start or be apart of WHATEVER Religion they want.. They do NOT need ANYONE’S approval to do so.. Why do you KEEP arguing with me on things I have ALREADY stated to be the SAME as your argument? Your comprehension skills are lacking. Time to brush up on your Study Technology..

          • December 3, 2015 at 1:33 pm

            But medical attention to injuries and illnesses is mandatory in Scientology. One is suspended from doing other services until medial treatment is completed successfully. Don’t know what you heard, but looks like it was way wrong.

          • C.P. Garcia
            December 3, 2015 at 1:42 pm

            Really. I could give you about 1000 stories of the “medical” attention members of the Sea Org received.. Or how about when they put someone less then the age 15 in charge as “medical” personal and “administering” medical care…. Not way wrong here by any means. Where are the “medical” professionals at Narconon?. There are no nursers or doctors on STAFF at an Church buildings.. You seem to be confused, or at least.. mis-informed.

          • December 3, 2015 at 1:49 pm

            No one is “in charge” of medical and no one “administers” medical. That there is someone who liaises between patient and doctor–sets up appointments, picks up meds, checks to see that the patient is following doctor’s instructions and improving, etc.–is not an unusual thing. Religious orders do that, and HR in big companies will track the employees needs and progress.

            When I go to my doctors–most are Scientologists but not all–I see S.O. members there, and sometimes the Med. Liaison Off. It is you who is grossly mis-informed.

          • C.P. Garcia
            December 3, 2015 at 1:53 pm

            You might want to read books written by members of your Church .. because they disagree with you.. One written by David Miscavige’s niece. Sure you will say she is lying.. etc.. Medical attention has been an issue for decades with Scientology and reported in 100s of cases.. its not a “made up” story to discredit the Church..

          • December 3, 2015 at 1:55 pm

            She is lying because in many many issues of the Church the requirement for medical attention when needed is laid out clearly.

          • C.P. Garcia
            December 3, 2015 at 1:59 pm

            Again.. what about the 1000s of others that have said the same thing? All lying huh? Not even sure why you started with me here.. I was not the one bad mouthing Scientology.. like 90% of the people here.. Other people were listing ALL sorts of things “Scientology” has been known to do.. Don’t see your comments under them..

          • December 3, 2015 at 4:04 pm

            1000 people claimed Rachel Dolazol to be a Black woman–she is not. So, yes, if 1000 people tell a lie, it’s still a lie. Did I catch you mentioned that Scientology forbids blood transfusions? It seemed to be implied, at least. That is also a big fat lie.

            I’ve already had a chat with others here. They are boring and hysterical. I thought you were trying to be more even handed, even though you obviously do hate the Church. Just thought you needed some correction on a few things you are citing as facts that are not facts that apply to Scientology.

          • C.P. Garcia
            December 3, 2015 at 4:13 pm

            Zero people claimed she was a Black Woman.. She portrayed herself as one, so people assumed she was.. This is a bad example for you to use.. And no.. again. Your reading comprehension is lacking.. Jehovah’s Witnesses are the ones who forbid it.. which is what I said.. I mentioned Scientology, Jehovah’s Witnesses, and Christian Science that use Religion to do what some or all of the “medical” field feels is their business.. Scientology’s would be pertaining to Psychology.. and also.. Touch Assists.. Touch Assists are used to “heal or help” injuries or pain. You haven’t corrected a SINGLE fact. I in fact DO NOT hate the Church.. you started attacking me.. I was being even handed and POINTED the similarities between Scientology and OTHER world Religions..

          • December 3, 2015 at 4:40 pm

            No, she was pointed to as a Black woman, the head of some NAACP, acknowledged as Black, treated as Black, invited to speak as a Black leader. It did not make it true.

            You can point out all the similarities you want between Scientology and any other religion. That does not change the errors you perpetuate. Psychology is not medicine. Touch assists are not the business of the medical field (as you claim) and they can do wonders. There are many religious practices that address the sick or injured: laying on of hands, prayer, anointing with oil, chants, brushing with leaves, etc. So what.

          • C.P. Garcia
            December 3, 2015 at 4:53 pm

            Psychology is part of the medical field. And Touch Assists do certainly do things that are the business of the medical field. Saying its not is completely and blatantly false. It says so right on Scientology.org .. Again you seem to think I am speaking against these practices. I was not. I was explaining to the person what you decided to “explain” to me. That other religions have the same sort of practices. Again you have not read my comments in full and are trying to argue with me in points I was arguing in the support of to others who were attacking Scientology.

          • December 3, 2015 at 5:23 pm

            Psychology is not a medical practice. It’s totally subject and nothing standard about it. But I’ll check your claim.

            No other religion has the practice of touch assists or anything like it. They do have practices.

            If you wish to “support” Scientology in any way, it is important to be accurate in your representations.

          • Avid Miskaridge
            December 3, 2015 at 10:19 pm

            Psychology at least lends itself to peer-review, open discussion and scrutiny. It is you and Scientology that is missing objectivity. SCIENTOLOGY Auditing is by definition and practice purerly subjective. I don’t support Scientology because I am privy to both sides of the story. When was the last time a psychologist, psychiatrist and a psychotherapist salvoed vicious attack-letters at people who disagreed with them? It is not a matter of bigotry, it is a matter of you not being allowed to think critically, you are simply being controlled by your beliefs, I get it (see my post?)–if you are a Scientologist, this is the most conversation I’ve seen from one in an open forum. If your argument is that everything negative said against Scientology is a lie then that’s a lot of liars in this world. I think currently there are a lot more “liars” than Scientologists left in membership. Also, David Micavige’s dad is writing a nice book about Scientology due out in 2016 and I can’t wait to read what the father of your leader has to say.

          • December 4, 2015 at 5:13 am

            Psychology is people guessing, inventing, constantly changing–nothing standard.

          • Avid Miskaridge
            December 4, 2015 at 10:08 am

            Go on, I would like to hear more about your psychology.

          • Frodis73
            December 4, 2015 at 9:55 pm

            Actually elle, if you would keep up with 21st century medical info (and not LRH’s wrong info from the 1950’s) you would learn that they are making excellent discoveries in the field of neurology regarding mental illness and how the brain works. Like somebody above pointed out they currently use peer reviewed and open discussions to further things unlike some idiot thinking he was gods gift to mankind and pulling things out of his rear end and thinking “research” on one person equals fact and science.

          • Captain MustSavage
            December 5, 2015 at 4:14 am

            Yes, elle, change is what happens when your profession is based on scientific knowledge and evidence based research rather than on the 50 year old writings of a proven liar who forbade anyone from reading anything to the contrary.

          • December 3, 2015 at 5:29 pm

            Second reply. Sorry, I could not find that psychology is part of the medical field on the Scientology.org website. It is nowhere obvious and I won’t search this huge site to find your claim there. I contend it is not there.

          • C.P. Garcia
            December 3, 2015 at 5:34 pm

            Again. Your reading comprehension skills need to improve. I said Touch Assists do things that are part of the medical business.. And that is stated on the website.

      • Frodis73
        December 2, 2015 at 2:54 pm

        Scientology also threw their weight around and filed thousands of lawsuits against the IRS to get that tax exemption in the first place. The courts were on the right side and ruled against them again and again. The IRS caved. The Co$ is also breaking the agreement they signed with the IRS back in 1993. They IRS has every right to launch an investigation into Co$ and it is long overdue. They owed the US $1B in 93. Just think what good that money could do if they were shut down and fined.

        • December 3, 2015 at 1:36 pm

          BS lies.
          And the IRS inspected Scientology for years before giving the tax exemptions to the Church and all it’s charitable and church groups.

          • Frodis73
            December 4, 2015 at 9:44 pm

            No elle, it is not all bs and lies.
            Btw, so what is the deal with NarCONon these days? It seems the Sea Org took over…so is it secular or religious now?

      • Ella Raitch
        December 2, 2015 at 3:58 pm

        Great summary of the legal realities – thank you.

  3. December 2, 2015 at 4:14 am

    Thank you for this article and letting people know that seeing Tom Cruise’s movies helps bring money to Scientology. Add John Travolta (Revolta) to the list. Although he isn’t nearly as high in Scientology as Cruise, he too has done the world a great disservice by speaking up for Scientology and luring unsuspecting people in.
    Paulette Cooper, author of “The Scandal of Scientology”

    • One Human
      December 2, 2015 at 10:32 am

      Bless you Paulette, you warned the world early on.
      Thank you for never giving up.

    • December 3, 2015 at 1:29 pm

      But you hear imaginary Scientologists cackling outside your door. And you claim they sneak into your home, and although you never see them and they don’t take anything, they leave something behind, like a glove, to let you know they have been there. Really, now, don’t you think that is a bit nutty? Or, maybe you will stoop to anything to manufacture “proof” that Scientologist give a hoot about you.

      • December 3, 2015 at 2:28 pm

        Yes, indeed, Scientology does these type of things — and much much worse. For decades. Against all enemies, which happily I am no longer. If you would quit the “Church” and open up your eyes — read tonyortega.org each day — you’d realize who’s the nutty one. (And no they don’t give a hoot about me any more; happily they have far more important things to worry about.)

        • Bob Crouch
          December 3, 2015 at 3:29 pm

          It’s extremely generous of you to take the time to honor one of these hate-filled nameless cult shills with your reply. You are a class act and a heroine to many of us!

          • December 3, 2015 at 8:22 pm

            What are you, a medieval court jester?

          • Bob Crouch
            December 3, 2015 at 8:49 pm

            According to one of Hubbard’s half-baked opinions, the fact that you think so must make it so.

          • December 3, 2015 at 8:55 pm

            So you agree with my characterization of you?

          • December 4, 2015 at 5:21 am

            I agree with you. Like a court jester, he bounces all over the place, injects himself everywhere, garish, mugging and grimacing. I can really see it.

          • Bob Crouch
            December 4, 2015 at 1:29 pm

            Of course, you agree. You are the genius who came up with this brain storm. “What can I call him to confront and shatter him? Let’s try jester.” Hubbard would be proud of you–and laugh about you behind your back

          • December 4, 2015 at 2:00 pm

            Yes and picture lady blue-blood momentarily deigning to enter the scene and immediately getting heckled by the riff raff. Groucher immediately kneels (not quite a full kowtow) and positions himself before her ladyship, before ingratiating himself as follows: “It’s extremely generous of you to take the time to honor one of these hate-filled nameless cult shills with your reply. You are a class act and a heroine to many of us!” This oration he delivers in full before again tipping his head to the floor and then scurrying back to his assigned position. There he quickly resumes his standard antics – including clumsy cartwheels off the wall and snorting while firebreathing.

          • December 4, 2015 at 3:18 pm

            And in the midst of all that, he tried to lick her to death.

          • December 4, 2015 at 4:10 pm

            I sincerely doubt that lady blue-blood would allow herself to be seen being licked by a court jester. Any public attempt of that kind on his part would have earned him a sound thrashing and maybe even a premature discharge.

          • December 3, 2015 at 8:29 pm

            Thanks… I’m sure Scientology told Elle what to say ….It’s sad. Perhaps one day she’ll start thinking on her own — and might then leave!

          • December 4, 2015 at 5:22 am

            That’s a problem with you. You are sure of so much that isn’t true. Like the cackling outside your door.

          • Jack99
            December 4, 2015 at 5:43 am

            Have you ever said anything you didn’t read on scientologymyths or in statements by Pouw or the church? Have you ever contradicted anything the church has said?

          • Bob Crouch
            December 4, 2015 at 10:06 pm

            Well, your cackling is quite real and rather repetitive.

          • Captain MustSavage
            December 5, 2015 at 3:37 am

            “You are so sure of so much that isn’t true.”
            This from someone who believes that gamma rays go through walls but not human bodies because human bodies resist radiation ( All About Radiation. LRon Hubbard); from someone who believes that the human jaw evolved from the hinges of a clam (A History of Man. L Ron Hubbard); and from someone who believes that space DC8’s dropped frozen aliens into Hawaiian volcanoes that didn’t exist at the time (OT III Wall of Fire). Just a tiny selection of non scientific nonsense that you buy into because you choose to believe without question every single thing ‘Source’, a comprehensively debunked fantasist, made up. Your’re the one who is ‘sure of so much that isn’t true’. It’s sad and creepy to see the cult mindset in action.

        • December 3, 2015 at 4:08 pm

          And yet you hear cackling outside your door? It behooves you to fabricate a Scientologist lurking in every shadow, and quiver in mock fright. No one has cared wit about you for a very very very long time.

          • December 3, 2015 at 10:39 pm

            Oh, poor elle. It looks as if you’ve been diagnosed by Ms.Noble as an empty vessel who channels the views of your superiors instead of “thinking on your own.”

          • Avid Miskaridge
            December 3, 2015 at 11:06 pm

            Poor Elle is psychologically projecting herself onto others and continues with her cognitive dissonance. Her feelings of persecution are very real to her because she only knows how to attack; as she herself has likely been attacked and abused by her own cohort and others who don’t share in her delusion. Elle appears to hold a lot of ideological opinions and likely demonstrates passive aggressive to full blown aggressive behavior when challenged.

          • December 3, 2015 at 11:14 pm


          • Avid Miskaridge
            December 3, 2015 at 11:17 pm

            Lol guilty.

          • vicariousthrill
            December 5, 2015 at 6:25 am

            Read Hubbard’s “affirmations”. You would be surprised.

          • December 5, 2015 at 10:25 am

            Oh, so you believe that Avid Miskaridge was quoting LRH then?

          • Jack99
            December 4, 2015 at 12:17 am

            If I had a nickel for every time elle did some thinking of her own, I’d have… no nickels. And Paulette has more class than elle has in her keyboard tapping little finger.

          • December 4, 2015 at 12:33 am

            [If I had a nickel for every time elle did some thinking of her own, I’d have… no nickels. And Paulette has more class than elle has in her keyboard tapping little finger.]

            Okay, but not more class than elle has in two of her keyboard tapping little fingers.

          • Jack99
            December 4, 2015 at 1:00 am

            Elle does a lot of keyboard tapping, that’s true. I’m not sure what good she thinks she does. Is her goal to piss off scientology critics, or is it to be an ambassador for the church of scientology? If 1: Yes, she’s not completely without talent. If 2: No way, Jose.

          • December 4, 2015 at 6:18 pm

            Wow, elle must really pack a punch with fingertips as loaded as all that. Not that surpassing the “class” level of Cooper in <2 of elle's dedos is really that big of a feat.

            But you still haven't picked up on the significance of your statement have you. I've been giving you so much credit for playing well with the cards you find yourself holding, but now I'm beginning to think the phrase "I've seen better heads on nickel tap beers" might be the best judgement of you after witnessing the latest jewels unearthed from your reactive mind.

          • Jack99
            December 4, 2015 at 10:37 pm

            My active mind is happy to disappoint you, iff. The question remains, though. If you think you and elle are doing a good job representing the church to people outside of your little bubble, well, good luck to the both of you.

          • December 5, 2015 at 12:50 pm

            I’m sorry that is still a question for you Jack99. Although it seems highly likely that you are not pleased with how things are being represented to you, you don’t seem to be able to bring your thought process about that to a head. There isn’t much more I can do to help you with that. It’s on you and no one else can control such inward processes on your behalf.

            (P.S. No sweat, your active brain hasn’t been a disappointment. Out of curiosity, have you or anyone else ever given it a proper name? On a scale of 1-10 how would you rate the action had by Mr. Active in the last week? Have you and he been happy?)

          • Jack99
            December 5, 2015 at 9:43 pm

            How about 7/10? That’s probably laughable to you scientologists who are 10/10 24/7. The thing is, iff, you and elle are doing such a good job showing the true face of the church, that my presence here isn’t really needed. I’ve enjoyed sparring with you, iff. Take care.

          • December 6, 2015 at 10:32 am

            This particular version of a Scientologist is much more like 36-24-36. But since you’ve got to hit the road ________ let me first just say “thanks for the compliment” and “chau.”

          • Bob Crouch
            December 6, 2015 at 12:05 pm

            Or the “Miscavige version:” 4’13”–2.5”

          • Ben Franklin
            December 4, 2015 at 5:20 am

            Elle lives by Hubbard’s rules. Elle Cannot say or do anything not approved by the church of Scientology and remain in good standing. That’s a fact. She can’t think on her own because she is totally brainwashed.

          • December 4, 2015 at 5:23 am

            Bob, the court jester.

          • Ben Franklin
            December 4, 2015 at 5:26 am

            You are not only dumb and deaf, you are blind too.

          • Bob Crouch
            December 4, 2015 at 1:29 pm

            What a wit you aren’t!

          • December 4, 2015 at 4:58 pm

            You have invested a lot of energy into that belief – you repeat it often.

          • Ben Franklin
            December 4, 2015 at 7:02 pm

            Yes I do very often, for brainwashed folks like you.

          • December 5, 2015 at 7:46 am

            Ben, you have no facts. You have been brainwashed by Ortega.

          • December 5, 2015 at 10:43 am

            What is certain is that he has memorized an affirmation along the lines of, “everyone who disagrees with me has been brainwashed.” He probably came up with it on his own but is attracted to Ortega for the validation. That’s my conjecture. Wanna wager? I hear they have online dice now so we could score the possibilities using a die if we wanted.

          • December 5, 2015 at 4:36 pm

            I’ll bet that you are correct :)

          • Ben Franklin
            December 6, 2015 at 4:25 am

            It is so weird how you are obsessed with Ortega who is just a journalist who happens to report on the insanity and the fraud that is the Church of Scientology on a daily basis. You must be so afraid of Ortega that you make him into this larger than life personality. Ortega has zero powers over anybody’s life and does not control anyone as you Scientologists cultist tend to think. Ortega is just a journalist who people tend to believe because he has built up credibility over the years. Unfortunately, from the Church of Scientology what we often see are denials and even more denials of everything and the mean spirited, childish recycled PR statements coming form Karin Pouw. In the world of CoS, only church members in good standing tell the truth about the church and anyone else outside the church is a liar.

          • Captain MustSavage
            December 5, 2015 at 4:00 am

            You do realise the irony in a cult follower who is required to believe every single thing written by a proven liar and who is prohibited from reading anything that might supply evidence of this claiming to be able to think for themselves don’t you?

          • December 5, 2015 at 1:10 pm

            Actually what I find far more ironic is the idea of a woman depicting other women as mentally passive receptacles of the inherently more powerful ideas of the “abusive men” who ostensibly control them. Although in today’s world full of Western chauvinist hypocrisies, it doesn’t come as the least bit of a surprise to me that women are commonly degraded in this way even while being told they should be thankful they aren’t being stripped of their dignity at an even worse level than that.

          • Bob Crouch
            December 5, 2015 at 1:15 pm

            If the shoe fits…

          • Captain MustSavage
            December 5, 2015 at 2:28 pm

            Nice attempt at a straw man argument, fine fettle, are you hatted for fallacious arguments on the Internet? If so you’ll have to make like new golden age of tech and re do it all.

          • December 5, 2015 at 2:51 pm

            It wasn’t meant as an argument. I’m not sure what there is about what you said that could be argued over. I thought you were just asking a rhetorical question and took the fact as obvious.

            Anyway, yes I understand that you were expressing the fact that you find something ironic about the contrast between your beliefs and my statement that went, “Oh, poor elle. It looks as if you’ve been diagnosed by Ms.Noble as an empty vessel who channels the views of your superiors instead of ‘thinking on your own.'”

          • Captain MustSavage
            December 5, 2015 at 4:21 pm

            Your reply to my original post is a textbook straw man response to Mrs Noble’s comment to elle.

            “Actually what I find far more ironic is the idea of a woman depicting other women as mentally passive receptacles of the inherently more powerful ideas of the “abusive men” who ostensibly control them. Although in today’s world full of Western chauvinist hypocrisies, it doesn’t come as the least bit of a surprise to me that women are commonly degraded in this way even while being told they should be thankful they aren’t being stripped of their dignity at an even worse level than that.”

            What is particularly ironic is your impassioned defence of women when scientology has an atrocious record of degrading women and stripping them of their dignity, for example: handing out vile flyers at Paulette Cooper’s apartment block claiming she was a prostitute who had sexual relations with a 2 year old child, sending sex toys to Monique Rathbun’s workplace, pressuring women such as Laura de Crescenzo ( is currently suing scientology) to have abortions, pressuring a child and her mother into lying to police about child sexual abuse perpetrated by a scientologist. Perhaps you could comment on your feelings about the way in which these women were degraded and stripped of their dignity?

            I also notice that in response to me you’ve failed to deny:
            1) that L Ron Hubbard is a proven liar
            2) that scientologists are forbidden from reading or watching any information critical of L Ron Hubbard or scientology
            3) that scientology is a scam
            4) that scientologists believe in Xenu and being infested with millions of dead space alien souls
            5) that the Hawaiian volacanoes Lafayette said Xenu dropped the frozen aliens in didn’t in fact exist at the time
            5) that scientology has a policy instructing scientologists to harm other people
            6) that scientologists have acted on this policy to harm other people
            7) that scientology engaged in criminal acts over many years to harm Paulette Cooper Noble
            8) that scientology is currently being sued in Texas by Monique Rathbun
            -9) that the court of appeals rejected scientologys claim that their harassment activities fell within their first amendment rights.

            Are you able to refute any of these?
            If not, what does it mean about you that you know these statements are true and that you’re still involved with an organisation that controls what information you’re allowed to have and that actively engages in harming other human beings?

          • December 5, 2015 at 4:36 pm

            I refute all of it.

          • Captain MustSavage
            December 5, 2015 at 4:52 pm

            Well then, go on, refute it. I’ll give you a hint – you need to supply evidence.

          • December 6, 2015 at 3:28 am

            You have supplied no evidence for your bogus accusations. The burden is on the accuser. You lose.

          • Captain MustSavage
            December 6, 2015 at 9:23 am

            Nope, the burden is on the person who said they could refute. You made that claim and then crumbled, providing exactly nothing in support. Readers can google the points I made and check for themselves, you gave them squat. Everyone reading this knows who ‘lost’. Perhaps have a think about why you’ve been unable to give any evidence that my statements were false.

          • December 6, 2015 at 9:26 am

            You supply no evidence.

          • Captain MustSavage
            December 6, 2015 at 9:37 am

            A reply but still no evidence after that brave little statement that you could refute everything? You’ve made zero attempt to refute anything. That’s just pathetic. As for mine, Google away, elle, as I said. Shouldn’t be too hard for someone who claimed in other discussions to have sought out hard copies of court documents in different jurisdictions. Yep, we all remember what you say. Do you?

          • December 6, 2015 at 10:30 am

            I said I refute all of it. I do so with a better claims to knowledge than you have in making the accusations.

          • Bob Crouch
            December 6, 2015 at 11:14 am

            Sure, your favorite ruse: “better claims to knowledge.” This should really read: “claims to better knowledge.” Since you NEVER substantiate your claims, they can’t be “better.” Better than what?

            So you keep claiming superior knowledge. Why? Because you read the cult’s hate sites? You watched their attack videos? Guess what: So have I! And then I went on and read all of those things that you are not allowed to read. So, if we must whip out and measure our knowledge, I’m miles ahead of you! As are many others!

          • Captain MustSavage
            December 6, 2015 at 12:20 pm

            Saying “I refute it” is the intellectual equivalent of stamping your little foot and saying ‘but Santa does exist!’ Prove any of what you say, including having “better claims to knowledge than I have in making accusations.”

          • Ben Franklin
            December 6, 2015 at 11:21 am

            Elle never provides any evidence on her own. All of elle’s so called just comes directly from Church of Scientology PR statements, and church propaganda magazines and publications. Once I read Karen Pouw’s public statement any any issues, I don’t even waste my time listening to anything elle is bubbling about, because it is always the same crap contained in the Church’s Public statements. Scientologists don’t think, they repeat.

          • Captain MustSavage
            December 6, 2015 at 12:38 pm

            elle really does just make a bunch of claims and then folds when asked to back it up. I’m really interested to know why OSA continues to allow her to operate. I can only speculate that her online presence in and of itself has a purpose. Public relations management can’t be the reason because she’s woeful at simulating a reasonable person. Perhaps her presence here is a warning sign to UTR’s that OSA is present?

          • Ben Franklin
            December 6, 2015 at 3:08 pm

            elle has a checkered past as a Scientologist, all of this crap you see here is elle doing her amends trying to prove that she is loyal to Miscavige and the church. She has to confront and shutter an SP, which will never happen. Scientology is a lost cause and I don’t know why she keeps embarrassing herself.

          • Captain MustSavage
            December 6, 2015 at 5:58 pm

            Do you know that for sure or is that just speculation?

          • December 6, 2015 at 11:03 am

            The burden of proof is on the person who said they could refute?!!!!!!!!!!!

            You directly mirror the likes of Judge Dr. Wilhelm Bürger! Look it up neanderthal.

          • Bob Crouch
            December 6, 2015 at 11:56 am

            I have to give the Captain his due. I googled his charges. They checked out! Every single one of them!

          • Captain MustSavage
            December 6, 2015 at 12:31 pm

            So does your use of punctuation tech somehow represent an argument?

          • December 6, 2015 at 1:32 pm

            If you want me to represent an argument you have to make me.

          • Captain MustSavage
            December 6, 2015 at 1:45 pm

            “Make me”? Really? That’s all ya got? Your journey back to adolescence is complete.

            It’s fascinating to see someone who articulated an argument around “women as mentally passive receptacles of the inherently more powerful ideas of the “abusive men”” and “Western chauvinist hypocrisies” reduced to such a juvenile response as a result of pointing out a problem in their position.

            Fine Fettle, what does is say about you that you support an organisation that has a policy directing its members to harm other human beings?

          • December 6, 2015 at 2:01 pm

            Big man called my bluff and that’s all I got. Thank goodness we have the right to bear arms in America.

          • Captain MustSavage
            December 6, 2015 at 2:19 pm

            What does it say about you that you support an organisation that has a policy directing its members to harm other human beings?

          • December 6, 2015 at 2:26 pm

            strawman–that’s all you got. That is all any of you gots.

          • Captain MustSavage
            December 6, 2015 at 2:33 pm

            What does it say about you that you support an organisation that directs its members to harm other human beings, elle?

          • sundaygirl
            December 6, 2015 at 8:43 am

            You’ve refuted nothing. As I’m sure you know, having looked in a dictionary to find the meaning of the word, to refute something is to disprove it. All you’ve done is denied. Big difference.

          • December 5, 2015 at 6:56 pm

            Why would I address Mrs. Noble’s comment to you a second time after I had already done so earlier? You’re not making any sense.

          • Captain MustSavage
            December 5, 2015 at 11:06 pm

            I wasn’t asking your to address Mrs Noble’s comment, I merely pointed out the irony of your defence given scientologys rancid history of the abuse and degradation of women. Yes, ff, defending scientology by taking a position of outrage based on claims that others are degrading women is awfully ironic given scientology’s history. Would you like to discuss that point? I’d really like to see you try. You haven’t been backward in expressing your views about the way that women are degraded by “western chauvinist hypocrisies”, lets hear what they are in relation to scientologys role in this.

            Also noting that you’re still not refuting any of points 1 – 9 in my post above. What does it say about you that you support an organisation that has a policy of harming other people?

          • December 6, 2015 at 10:49 am

            It was a rhetorical question (obviously.)

          • Captain MustSavage
            December 6, 2015 at 12:30 pm

            Once again you fail to address any of my points. Are you unable to? Please let us know what your views are on scientologys role in “degrading and stripping women of their dignity”. You were fired up about others doing that to women. Fine Fettle, in relation to your comments about the treatment of women you are, as the saying goes, without a leg to stand on. That is why you refuse to address the issue. Face it, you’ve been hoist on your own straw man argument petard. The rational response to this would be to acknowledge it. You haven’t, which leads me to suspect that you’re either too stupid to realise it, too stubborn to acknowledge it or too afraid of being sent to the RPF if you did. Have the cojones to address the issue.

          • December 6, 2015 at 1:05 pm

            I don’t have cajones you mf a hole. Thanks for proving my point to a T.

          • Captain MustSavage
            December 6, 2015 at 1:09 pm

            What point is that? Oh and employing cuss tech now? Classy.

            Still noticing your failure to address the issues I’ve raised with you.

            What does it say about YOU that you support an organisation that directs its members to HARM other human beings?

          • Bob Crouch
            December 6, 2015 at 1:15 pm

            Oh boy, you’ve done done it now! You’ve reduced fettle to a red-faced screaming dwarf not unlike Miscavige. Asking pertinent questions will do that to them–every time! How Pavlovian…

          • Bob Crouch
            December 6, 2015 at 12:03 pm

            Forgive my dear friend fettle. She just discovered the concept of “rhetorical questions” and is a bit stuck on the concept. She tends to fixate; it’ll pass.

          • Bob Crouch
            December 5, 2015 at 7:33 pm

            The “aggrieved woman” card only comes out of the deck whenever convenient. A few of my favorite examples of how scientology treats women (other than the ones you mentioned already):

            1. A fake navy where women are addressed as “sir.” Maybe it’s the butch little outfits?
            2. A culture where the leader can disappear his wife, acting like a displeased medieval pasha.
            3. A cult where (presumably female) shills get to characterize Leah Remini as an adulteress while excusing the same behavior (and worse) in Cruise, Travolta, Hubbard, Miscavige and Tommy Davis.

          • Avid Miskaridge
            December 3, 2015 at 10:41 pm

            Write us a book Elle, please enlighten us about how free-thinking you are and how you can’t be wrong about the world and Scientology. Point me to a published book written by a current satisfied member of Scientology. I am curious as to what your definition of a cult is?

          • Frodis73
            December 4, 2015 at 9:39 pm

            Elle used the old definition of cult and it means to care. Snort.

          • Jack99
            December 3, 2015 at 11:44 pm

            “No one has cared wit about you…”

            Hmm… over 30 upvotes for Paulette Cooper, just 1 for elle.

          • December 3, 2015 at 11:52 pm

            There. I just upvoted you since now I know how much a click of a button means to you. ;-)

          • Jack99
            December 4, 2015 at 12:04 am

            Gee whiz golly, iff, thanks a bunch! I was just pointing out an obvious, visible fault in elle’s statement, but you know, Disqus probably has an agenda…

          • December 4, 2015 at 5:17 am

            None by Scientologists. That’s who she thinks care about her soooooo much they cackle outside her door, slip into her home though never seen, peek from every shadow to watch her every move.

            And the bunkerbutts ran right over here to vote her up only because I said no one gives a wit about her? We had been talking about Scientologists and none do care.

          • Jack99
            December 4, 2015 at 5:35 am

            Ah, elle who says she is no one important believes Paulette only got upvotes because elle said no one cares about her. The upvotes couldn’t possibly be because of Paulette’s statement, could they? You might want to check the size of your ego, elle.

          • December 4, 2015 at 5:47 am

            Of course not. You and your comrades have posted much better and posted by the hundreds. You think she shows up once, drops a couple lines and has made the rest of you look like amateurs? Nah. But you do hope to catch her attention hoping her great fame and glory will bleed onto you just a little and make you less of a nobody.

          • Jack99
            December 4, 2015 at 6:01 am

            Ha ha, sure. Are you saying you’re not writing elle miscavige over and over in your notebook?

          • Bob Crouch
            December 4, 2015 at 10:14 pm

            Ironically, elle cares so much that she is obsessed with repeating herself about “cackling” ad nauseam. And so at least Elle’s cackling is undeniably real. Which lends all the more credence to Paulette’s cackling account. Funny how that works!

          • Captain MustSavage
            December 5, 2015 at 3:53 am

            Right, because scientolgists have never ever like ever harassed Paulette Cooper, have they? I mean those claims of hers are just total outlandish lies, aren’t they? Scientology would never harm another human being, right? Hubbard never ever wrote a policy where he instructed his cult followers to lie, cheat , destroy, ruin utterly etc any other human beings, right? What’s that you say? Sorry, I can’t hear you, elle…

          • Bob Crouch
            December 4, 2015 at 10:09 pm

            The cult cared enough to sue and harass her for a very long time. Ironic?

          • December 5, 2015 at 4:33 pm

            The “problem” was narrow and handled long long long long long ago. Suck it up.

          • Bob Crouch
            December 5, 2015 at 5:27 pm

            “The ‘problem’ was narrow and handled long long long long long ago.” If your “problem” refers to a journalist doing her job and accurately reporting on the illegal and immoral practices of a criminal organization, I would have to disagree with you.

            Since the original 1971 publication of Ms. Cooper’s book and the terror activities visited upon her by that cult, many more journalists as well as former “church” members have done likewise–undaunted by litigation as well as outright dirty tricks. Several biographies and scholarly works have debunked–with ample documentation–Hubbard’s grandiose and fraudulent claims about himself. Even though Ms. Cooper’s book continues to be read and admired as a pioneering work of journalism, its content pales in comparison to all the other details that have since then come to light.

            44 years later, 5.5 million Americans watched the overwhelmingly critically acclaimed and awarded “Going Clear” documentary during its original HBO run alone. Many more, in the US and abroad, have done so since. Leah Remini’s memoir went straight to #1 on the NYT bestseller list and has remained there since. Judging by the book’s reviews, its readers are very happy with their purchasing decision.

            Meanwhile, independent polls and research indicate a precipitous decline in the “church” membership globally. (Even the Hubbard and Miscavige families have fled in droves). Several European countries have had enough of it and taken steps to curb fraudulent practices or dismantle scientology entirely. Scientology has taken to advertising its “courses” on the internet anonymously and deceptively–not exactly what an organization proud of its brand name would do!

            2016 is expected to see Ron Miscavige’s and Jesse Prince’s memoirs, Louis Theroux’s scientology film released in the US (the Brits already had the pleasure), perhaps even Mark Bunker’s long anticipated “Truth Rundown” documentary. And who knows, Alex Gibney is discussing a sequel to his “Going Clear” documentary. He may even get yet another Oscar for the first one as “church” efforts at interfering with that process apparently have borne no fruit.

            As usual, more shall be revealed as several key lawsuits will be progressing here (Laura DeCrescenzo, Monique Rathbun, and undoubtedly a few more for Narconon alone) and abroad (most notably, in Belgium and Russia). Of course, if the past is any indication, your “church leadership” will be all too eager to make a few more problems for itself as well. Who knows, maybe scientology spokes-himbo Cruise will speak up again–I hope he does. As always, a new year, a few surprises…

          • Captain MustSavage
            December 5, 2015 at 3:47 am

            You’d like to believe that was true. The media has been very interested in speaking with Paulette in relation to the criminal harassment she experienced at the hands of your organisation. Paulette is brave enough to speak to the media. David Miscavige hasnt dared do this. Tom Cruise has journalists banned from asking questions he’s afraid to face. Where are your spokespeople? Why did Tommy Davis blow? Why hasn’t Karen Pouw presented herself for interviews? Why does Scientology hide behind written statements? That’s pretty cowardly behavior from people who consider themselves to be dauntless defiant and resolute isn’t it?

          • vicariousthrill
            December 5, 2015 at 6:30 am

            Elle, if you ever meet Ms. Cooper, you will feel ashamed of what you have said about her. She is not what you think or what you have been told. Just please consider that there are two (or more!) sides to every story, there’s a possibility you are wrong. I wish you the best.

          • December 5, 2015 at 4:32 pm

            She was never in Scientology. She started with an anti-Church agenda and carried that on with a vengeance.

          • Bob Crouch
            December 5, 2015 at 6:14 pm

            As usual, you are not addressing any of vic’s points. However, as to your great “revelations.” Ms. Cooper NEVER claimed to have been in scientology. She went once and fled before the regges go to her, got her personal information and would call her for money several times a day (or night). Of course, eventually they got her personal information and did a lot worse than that.

            She started out neither with an anti-“church” agenda nor with that vengeance that you are imagining. She started out with journalistic interest after encountering the number that scientology had done on the mental health of a professional associate. Her book offers a very restrained and journalistically responsible account. Still, she turned over one rock too many for an organization that has a zero tolerance for exposure that it does not carefully control!

            You’d know that, had you read the book. Of course, then you’d have the cult coming after you too…

      • Frodis73
        December 4, 2015 at 9:37 pm

        Well, I guess I should have read down a little further. You actually did “go there” with Paulette. You are a hateful bigot elle. I really hope you wake up someday and look at the multiple independent sources that the rest of the world has access to that proves LRH was nothing but a mentally ill con artist.

        • December 5, 2015 at 4:30 pm

          A lie told by 1,000 people is still a lie.

          • Bob Crouch
            December 5, 2015 at 6:15 pm

            But it takes only one person to tell 1,000 lies. LRH proved that!

      • madame duran
        December 5, 2015 at 12:12 am

        Both you and your Scientology cult must take great pride in attacking/mocking a Holocaust survivor. Paulette Cooper, you have my admiration for withstanding such a vile, mafia-like corporation posing as a religion.

    • December 3, 2015 at 8:13 pm

      Paying to look at Tom Cruise movies doesn’t helps bring money to Scientology that I can see. He already has enough money to thrive off of for the rest of his life and to donate to anybody and anything he wants to donate to. Let’s imagine that a failure of his career could be achieved through a boycott of his films. Even this scenario would not impact the amount of money brought by him to the Church.

      • December 4, 2015 at 5:43 am

        I love how they think boycotting his movies will make any impact of any kind. I love how this camp claims Cruise’s movies are successful because Scientologists are forced to go to them–like that is even possible. They also claim there are only 327 Scientologists in the whole world left. So let’s say that Scientologists are forced to go. It would take hundreds of millions of members to make the financial success of his movies. We know the 327 members can’t do that because we are all dirt poor and in debt (so they tell us). So how do they make their numbers add up? Bunker math.

        Here’s how we use that boycot: Folks, here is the movie Pee Cooper doesn’t want you to see. What is she afraid of. Oh, yeah, everything, but help her face her fears and see this great Cruise movie and take a date.

        • Ben Franklin
          December 4, 2015 at 5:47 am

          You generalize too much. You do know what Hubbard thinks of people who generalize too much, don’t you?

        • Ben Franklin
          December 4, 2015 at 5:51 am

          Calling someone Pee is so Juvenile. What are you? A 10 year old kid. Is this what Scientology teaches you? So Embarrassing to say the least.

          • December 4, 2015 at 6:56 am

            She is so revolta, I mean, revolting.

          • Ben Franklin
            December 4, 2015 at 7:09 am

            You are an old woman an IQ of a 10 year old kid

          • December 4, 2015 at 7:54 am

            What? I’m just matching Pee Cooper on this playground. She came up with “Ravolta” for my man John. And that’s fine with you. Double standard much?

          • Ben Franklin
            December 4, 2015 at 8:03 am

            You assume a lot of things. Never act or react based on assumptions, otherwise, you will just end up looking like a fool.

          • Bob Crouch
            December 4, 2015 at 1:29 pm

            You’re not matching anybody. You were using this rather childish naming long before Ms. Cooper allegedly gave you a pretext. That’s how you cult shills do. Lie much?

          • daytoncapri
            December 4, 2015 at 10:14 pm

            elle … I suggest that you keep your dignity, not let others affect your language.

          • December 5, 2015 at 12:36 pm

            Once a long time ago I heard or read him tell some story about less than positive experiences in grade school or junior high or some such, in which he revealed that some boy used to try to tease him by twisting his name into “revolta.” So Cooper didn’t come up with it, she just copped it from some errant schoolboy far more entitled to credit than she.

          • Bob Crouch
            December 5, 2015 at 2:00 pm

            And you and elle would be well advised NOT to take credit for Pee, Wrathbun, Glibney and many others. Considering how plentiful inspiration for such great feats of imagination can be found on the “church” hate videos which you so slavishly try to imitate.

          • December 5, 2015 at 4:25 pm

            That would be “Wrathbuns” plural. He’s the real leader of the real scientology who is going to save the world. Thought he was the pied piper to lead all the faithful away into his lair. He turned around to find that rats were following him.

          • Bob Crouch
            December 5, 2015 at 4:40 pm

            You’re operating on outdated information. After escaping from the scientology compound, Mr. Rathbun was indeed hopeful that scientology “teachings” may be of value if practiced outside of the cult. However, he has since then seen the error of his ways and renounced scientology in its entirety. It appears that his recovery from scientology mind control is progressing splendidly.

            You may want to use more current resources than the “church” hate videos.

          • December 5, 2015 at 4:55 pm

            He became disillusioned when he saw no one was going to make him rich. Then he decided the way to make money is to involve himself in big lawsuits and give perjured testimony. That didn’t work for him either. Do you donate to his blog? He has a donate button, right?

          • Bob Crouch
            December 5, 2015 at 5:53 pm

            This is hilarious. This is Katie Holmes, over again. These people flee your cult. And YOU of all people feel that you should interpret their life choices for them.

            Just for the record, there are quite a few “independent scientologists.” And these people are already “church-” conditioned to expect being financially fleeced for “auditing services.” Marty as a highly qualified “auditor” and the former scientology #2 could undoubtedly parlay this into a significant financial windfall for himself. All he would have to do is follow the unscrupulous, rapacious financial practices the “church” have taught him. He’d get rich–even at a big discount.

            As to “perjured testimony,” now your despair is truly showing! Perjury is a crime; name Marty’s perjury conviction! Before you make up any more lies, and make even more of a fool of yourself.

          • December 5, 2015 at 4:24 pm

            Maybe that accounts for why my first thought when reading her first post was that she was a childish playground troublemaker, the kind that provokes someone to smack her then she whines that she is the victim.

          • Bob Crouch
            December 4, 2015 at 7:21 pm

            Haters will hate. They can’t help themselves–even if it shows the cult’s true face

          • Ben Franklin
            December 4, 2015 at 7:32 pm

            The scary thing is there is a whole bunch of the Scientology cultists out here who did not even finish high school, and somehow deluded that are the smartest people on the planet, going around bad mouthing people everywhere.

          • Bob Crouch
            December 4, 2015 at 10:03 pm

            Given how uneducated and ignorant both Hubbard and Miscavige were/are, this is obviously a point of pride. Of course, the Hubbster tried to vigorously lie about it by making up all those titles, accomplishments and all that fictitious “research.”

          • December 5, 2015 at 12:17 pm

            True, like by trying to blacklist Travolta for walking his talk and speaking the truth about his convictions. Glad I’m not immersed in that kind of culture.

          • Bob Crouch
            December 5, 2015 at 12:35 pm

            Blacklisting Travolta? Who exactly is doing that, or even “trying?”

            On the other hand, should you really be that put off by this practice? The disconnection that the “church” mandates on dissident former members includes blacklisting, i.e. a concerted effort to isolate a person from even their closest family, and ruin them professionally as well as personally. These are NOT aberrations or occasional excesses but the words of the Chairman Ron! “Scripture,” in the perverted, twisted scientology lingo sense of the word of it.

          • December 5, 2015 at 12:43 pm



            Share ›

            Paulette Cooper Noble • 8 minutes ago
            Thank you for this article and letting people know that seeing Tom Cruise’s movies helps bring money to Scientology. Add John Travolta (Revolta) to the list. Although he isn’t nearly as high in Scientology as Cruise, he too has done the world a great disservice by speaking up for Scientology and luring unsuspecting people in.
            Paulette Cooper, author of “The Scandal of Scientology”

          • Bob Crouch
            December 5, 2015 at 1:05 pm

            I saw that. So what? This is agreeing to a simple fact (which she did not even bring up in the first place–this article did): You give money to JT/TC, some of that money ends up in scientology’s hands. An undeniably true statement. In fact, I’ll take it a step further: You patronize their movies, you add to the credibility and notoriety which they use to promote scientology. This is common sense; hardly the sharing of a deep secret!

            Everyone can make up their own mind after that. NOWHERE does she say: “We have to stand together and stay away from TC/JT movies.” Or: “Write to the major Hollywood studios/producers and tell them not to employ these two.” “Boycott” or “blacklist” is not even hinted at. You are making that up from whole cloth!

            Unlike in scientology, where failure to disconnect–even from your spouse, parent or child–will result in your own disconnection. Where Hubbard MANDATES ruining those who are opposed to scientology.

          • December 5, 2015 at 1:27 pm

            “Blacklist” is just a common figure of speech. I see that it sure did strike a nerve with you though. You are so easily set off by the tiniest things – it’s like you’re always on a hair trigger ready to go off at the mouth on a moment’s notice. You rarely seem to think before you speak.

          • Bob Crouch
            December 5, 2015 at 1:42 pm

            Actually, it’s not “a common figure of speech.” It brings to mind McCarthyism and repression. Of course, in scientology, repression is certainly “common,” and where “needed” not just encouraged but even mandated. So I can see where YOU may not think of it as a big deal. But trust me on this: outside of the cult bubble, it is!

          • December 5, 2015 at 2:02 pm

            That is one of the events it may bring to mind depending on your knowledge. Bob, you need to get out of the past, not to mention the narrow confines of purely American history. Sheesh even a perusal of as poor and watered down a source as Wikipedia could improve your knowledge bank on this term from the sound of it.

            And yes I meant that the comments made by Cooper about Travolta here were hateful. They were not even superficially softened down to the level of such things as predictions and speculations as were the comments in the article about Tom Cruise. The comments about Travolta were just downright hate-filled.

          • Bob Crouch
            December 5, 2015 at 2:14 pm

            “Downright hate-filled?” You are being a drama queen now! What did she say that would fit that criteria?

            You spend your days quoting scientology “church” hate videos. Rather than addressing criticisms, you resort to personal attacks. How many names have you mangled? How many utterancfes have you taken out of context (not even mentioning Cooper’s right here). Are you going soft now?

          • December 5, 2015 at 4:21 pm

            Exactly. Pee Cooper is totally classless and venomous. She is hate-filled across the boards. She was performing for the bunkerbutts. She takes every pot shot she can. She is so Narcissist she think Scientology is preoccupied with her to the point (she believes) they sent me here to find you the false name she used when she alleged went into a church a started a course. She can’t even prove she ever set foot in a door. She hated the Church from the get-go. She is unable to be objective. She discredits herself and all her claims.

          • Bob Crouch
            December 5, 2015 at 6:19 pm

            “She discredits herself and all her claims.” You’d have a point–if only anyone (other than fettle) were to believe you. It’s a cruel world, when all the evidence is against you…

          • Ben Franklin
            December 6, 2015 at 10:35 am

            Thinking people read about Paulette Cooper and Understand who she is. Mindless people like you insult her at your own detriment because it makes even more people hate Scientology and everything it stands for the just based on the juvenile, crude, and embarrassing behavior exhibited here by you as a Scientologist.

          • Avid Miskaridge
            December 6, 2015 at 9:35 pm

            Good ol’ fine fiddle at it again. Has he/she even read the book she calls lies or anything even close to finishing a chapter of any other book other than LRH-goldleaf leatherbound turds? No one has yet to point me to a Scientology member written and published book that paints the Lafayettes in a good light? Scientology Books from happy members: 0

          • December 4, 2015 at 1:26 pm

            Thanks for the comic relief on that one. It helped me let off some steam so for the time being I’m no longer feeling the need to scratch her eyes out. ;-/

          • December 4, 2015 at 1:38 pm

            Do I have some special high status now that she has replied to me more than she has ever replied to anyone apparently? Take that, bunker Brown Shirts.

          • Supper Powers
            December 4, 2015 at 8:48 pm

            What’s a bunker Brown Shirt?

          • Bob Crouch
            December 4, 2015 at 7:19 pm


        • Jack99
          December 4, 2015 at 6:05 am

          I love how elle thinks misrepresenting arguments by scientology critics will make any impact of any kind.

        • Bob Crouch
          December 4, 2015 at 1:29 pm

          I have NEVER seen the claim that Cruise movies are successful because of scilons being forced to see them–even the cult is not that cruel. Nor have I ever seen claims for your other straw man, that there are only 327 scilons. Although there is no doubt that 327 is a lot closer (by orders of magnitude) to the actual number of cult members than the 12 million that was claimed so much (albeit not lately; the claims have become a lot more vague since proven as the lies that they are).

          • December 4, 2015 at 1:31 pm

            You are such a wet blanket. Too bad you don’t even realize that kind of thing only has an effect on those who actually expect you to get a joke.

          • Bob Crouch
            December 4, 2015 at 7:17 pm

            This may be humorous unless it comes from someone with no sense who routinely distorts or makes up arguments.

          • December 4, 2015 at 8:13 pm

            Bob, you are such a wet blanket.

          • Bob Crouch
            December 4, 2015 at 9:59 pm

            It’s been painfully obvious that you don’t write your own materials. But THIS? Really?

          • Frodis73
            December 4, 2015 at 10:01 pm

            Speaking of obviously not writing her own stuff, get a load of the two long replies down below to Paulette…I have never seen her write so much and I don’t think it is her. Though it does include some wackiness about psychology. It does however, prove the church is just as obsessed with Paulette as ever though.

          • Bob Crouch
            December 4, 2015 at 10:33 pm

            Of course they are. Mentioning her name is enough to guarantee a vitriolic response. Throw in Lisa McPherson and the yapping becomes unstoppable.

          • daytoncapri
            December 4, 2015 at 10:10 pm

            Actually, I chuckled when I read Bob’s words “even the cult is not that cruel.” I guess humor, like art, is in the eye if the beholder. To each his own…

          • December 5, 2015 at 12:00 pm

            Did you think I meant Bob was using a wet blanket to douse his own sentiments? How novel.

            Actually, now that you mention it I wouldn’t put it past him. And you’d be right there telling him that was a fine way to express his individuality.

            (P.S. It would be a lonely world if either art or any of its subbranches were in the eye of the beholder.)

          • Bob Crouch
            December 5, 2015 at 2:26 pm

            You caught me there! I saw the picture, and got caught up in the enthusiasm of it all. While I can’t quite bring myself to give Tom the lust-filled looks that Miscavige does, I felt myself slipping into feeling something for a man who claims to have all the answers. And yet, with all the “tech” and his “OT” status, here he is, three divorces and disconnected families later (following faithfully in LRH’s foot steps, ironically). So, before I would be too filled with pity for a “big being” who allows himself to be the spokesperson for a cult that destroys lives and families, I had to do something. So, out came the wet blanket.

            Again, you have figured me out. The psychs have nothing on you!

          • December 5, 2015 at 2:43 pm

            Wow, you guys are REALLY trying to sell me on this picture! That’s it, I’ve decided – I’m DEFINITELY going to see it now. I hear it comes out on Blu-ray and DVD soon anyway. Or maybe I can still find it in theaters. Maybe I’ll go tonight. Was it that part with Cruise hanging off the side of the airplane that threw you into so much turmoil about your sexuality? (I’ve seen that on the previews.) Or was it some other part? Actually, upon reflection I realize I don’t really want to hear more about your experience. I’ll just go have one of my own.

          • Bob Crouch
            December 5, 2015 at 3:19 pm

            Yes, you should definitely go and enjoy the picture. I’m surprised you haven’t yet. You may want to go quickly before it comes up in a sec check! Might as well go with it; one way or another, your money will wind up in the hands of scientologists anyway.

            So Tom’s hanging off a plane? Gee, I hope he’s OK now. After all the damage that couch jumping did to his career, this sounds like an even more alarming stunt. Good thing, he has his “OT powers” to help him out.

          • December 5, 2015 at 3:26 pm

            [So Tom’s hanging off a plane?] I take it that’s your inflated way of making fun of me for not already knowing what happens in a picture you already know I haven’t watched.

          • Bob Crouch
            December 5, 2015 at 6:00 pm

            That makes two of us. Tom hanging off a plane or a sofa or some such thing was news to me–until you told me. After this spoiler, there’s REALLY no need to see it now. I saw Bond do that (plane, not sofa) decades ago; been there, done that…

          • December 5, 2015 at 6:44 pm

            I thought spoiler meant giving away the climax or some other important plot development. I doubt the segment of a preview out of the corner of my eye I saw one day a couple months ago is a spoiler.

            So are you now saying that you didn’t see the picture even though earlier you said you saw it?

            [You caught me there! I saw the picture, and got caught up in the enthusiasm of it all. While I can’t quite bring myself to give Tom the lust-filled looks that Miscavige does, I felt myself slipping into feeling something for a man who claims to have all the answers. And yet, with all the “tech” and his “OT” status, here he is, three divorces and disconnected families later (following faithfully in LRH’s foot steps, ironically). So, before I would be too filled with pity for a “big being” who allows himself to be the spokesperson for a cult that destroys lives and families, I had to do something. So, out came the wet blanket.]

          • Bob Crouch
            December 5, 2015 at 7:00 pm

            No, I never claimed that I saw it. And I’m fairly certain that I never will. Watching middle-aged men hanging off of sofas or planes, for that matter. Not really my thing.

            But you said, you’ll see it tonight. I’m sure it’ll have a happy ending (not the Travolta kind, of course). After all, they have to save Tom for the sequel.

          • December 6, 2015 at 10:52 am

            You’re supposed to say “my bad” when you make a mistake like that. (This is not the thread in which I posted a picture of Tom Cruise and nobody can read your mind.)

          • Bob Crouch
            December 6, 2015 at 11:23 am

            Really, do you say “my bad” every time you repeat one of Miscavige’s or Hubbard’s lies? Or every time you call someone a name in order to distract from having been caught out in one of those lies?

            You have my word. If I EVER tell something that turns out NOT to be true–inadvertently or not–you’ll get “my bad.”

          • December 6, 2015 at 11:31 am

            I’m waiting (on the current subject of the film that is.)

          • December 6, 2015 at 12:00 pm

            I caught him in many untruths but have yet got his My Bad. He twists it into something else and blames me in some convoluted logic.

          • Bob Crouch
            December 6, 2015 at 1:28 pm

            Sure you have–in your wildest dreams. But not to worry, I am not “blaming you.” Thought-stopping cults produce lots of folks just like you. I blame the cult!

          • Bob Crouch
            December 6, 2015 at 12:13 pm

            OK, your bad! I really did not mean to gloat about your inability to make out simple context. But, you insisted…

          • December 6, 2015 at 12:19 pm

            Hilarious. Don’t worry though. Your secret’s safe with me. I will never tell anyone and they will never know because they have no way of viewing the landscape. Wink wink.

          • daytoncapri
            December 5, 2015 at 5:26 pm

            Wow. I sit in quiet admiration of the strange and beautiful relationship that you and Bob have with each other.

          • December 5, 2015 at 6:45 pm


          • daytoncapri
            December 5, 2015 at 8:08 pm

            Chuckles for everyone 😊

          • Bob Crouch
            December 5, 2015 at 2:45 pm

            You have to give fettle a break. She really “likes” me. Not having matured emotionally all that much since kindergarten (cults will do that to you), she is terrified of her own feelings. She’s daydreaming I’ll whisk her away from the only cult she’s’ ever known, and we will move into a free-thinker commune in Wyoming where we’ll shed all our clothes and live off the land.

            She also gets jealous easily. Whenever I talk to someone else (particularly elle), she has to butt in. Or talk to them about me, in hopes of making me jealous.

            So she covers up, using the only defense she knows. Since she can’t physically blush at my sight and rap me in the shoulder, name-calling is the only resort she has. And as a lesser stand-in, Tom Cruise will just have to do for the time being.

            But I know that somewhere deep within (in a place even she can’t see right now), she is beautiful, strong and kind. Without the cult holding her back, she’ll be alright–eventually.

        • Bob Crouch
          December 4, 2015 at 7:58 pm

          Agreed. The idea of somehow making a Cruise movie flop through a boycott is probably absurd. Then again, I applaud people principled enough to not give their money to someone who stands for reprehensible things. Regardless of this outcome, their integrity counts.

          And sometimes an effect is achieved: Cruise paid severely for his couch/anti-psych rant antics. Obviously, he’s dialed his crazy back quite a bit.

          • December 4, 2015 at 8:13 pm

            Everyone loved his couch jumping. And more people than you will admit agreed with him about psychs.
            As for giving money to people who do reprehensible things, I would never donate to Wrathbuns, or Rinder, or Ortega–which have that donate button? All? Like Wrathbuns’ Real Scientology group in TX–how much is he making on that? Did anyone take him up on the free remedy auditing he offered where you could pay what you wanted to after it was over.He even had a payment plan. How much did he make on that?

          • Ben Franklin
            December 4, 2015 at 9:29 pm

            “Everyone loved his couch jumping.” Where is the proof? You lie way way too much.

          • December 5, 2015 at 11:50 am

            No matter how many women would have loved to prove their love of it, they know the laws against that kind of thing are there for good reason.

          • Frodis73
            December 4, 2015 at 9:33 pm

            For the millionth time, there is no ‘real scientology group’ being run by Marty in Texas or anywhere else. He has woken up and realized that LRH and scientology is scam.
            You have made so many nasty accusations against Paulette online but you seemed to either have the decency to keep them to yourself or were too afraid to confront her directly…I’m not sure which. Calling her petty names though…seriously? How old are you elle? Again, you (and fine fettle) show your true colors for the world to see what fine examples you are of fine, upstanding, compassionate, caring and wonderful scientologists.
            Lastly, as for everybody loving Tom Cruise jumping on a couch…yeah, right. That moment is when the world at large began to question his sanity. From that point on it has been all down hill as he made an a** of himself with Matt Laurer and then that sci video was leaked to the net where he is manic and spouting sci speak. His fan base has done nothing but shrink in the past decade.

          • December 5, 2015 at 6:19 am

            Why not? He was going to make millions of OTs and that would force the Church to reform. So when he was not flooded with people throwing money at him, he had an epiphany–no one wanted his knock-off junk. Obvious to all, he was trying to scam people.

          • sundaygirl
            December 5, 2015 at 7:41 am

            No, it was just that no one outside the organization really believes in the gobbledygook Hubbard wrote. His “tech” is bunk.

          • Waterhorse
            December 6, 2015 at 1:23 pm

            Your “No one outside the organization” is a fabrication of your own limited awareness. Wishful thinking perhaps but absolute balderdash. “Bunk” as you would put it.
            It’s a fictional statement because a heck of a lot of very smart people including some people in government DO realize Scientology is very much a reality. Your statements reek of small minded peevish prejudice.
            New ideas are always resisted by vested interests including the media but eventually they take hold.

          • sundaygirl
            December 6, 2015 at 2:14 pm

            Gosh, you guys are dense. Sure, there might be a handful of people outside your organization that will pick up a Hubbard book and find the bunk in it interesting. But your organization’s miniscule membership numbers are really where the importance is. Scientology is very much a reality, you are correct, for the 25,000 or so people who bought in. The other couple billion, not so much.

          • Waterhorse
            December 7, 2015 at 10:28 am

            Relatively small numbers of early adopters usually see the benefit of something prior to mass acceptance of it. New ideas are valuable and history is strewn with examples of new innovations being opposed for decades then suddenly it’s all good – and the general populace rubs their eyes and sees what’s really going on. Scientology is a major innovation which makes the I-phone look like a gob-stopper.

          • sundaygirl
            December 7, 2015 at 11:18 am

            How do you explain that religious surveys have shown a steady decline in your membership over the years? (More people consider themselves Jedis than Scientologists. This is a powerful statistic.) Your “scripture” is available on-line for anyone to view. It is not bringing people to you, however; it seems to be pushing them away. If the material was so gob-smacking and brilliant, wouldn’t your orgs be packed to the ceilings? Wouldn’t there be more Scientologists than Jedis?

          • Waterhorse
            December 7, 2015 at 5:21 pm

            There are millions of scientologists out there. They just haven’t realized it – yet. Once things are better aligned it will start to become apparent what the real numbers will look like. New things take time and effort to catch on.

          • sundaygirl
            December 7, 2015 at 6:47 pm

            What do you mean “better aligned”? And, again, what about all the people who’ve either left your organization or read the materials and weren’t impressed? What can your organization do now to convince them they should return or join up? The current system of pushing personality tests on unsuspecting or naive passers-by isn’t bringing them in, that’s for sure.

          • Bob Crouch
            December 7, 2015 at 7:02 pm

            If millions are awaiting their great scientology awakening, why is the “church” claiming to have more than 12 million adherents NOW? Surely, such bald-faced lies do nothing to make this a more attractive endeavor? What else are they lying about?

          • Waterhorse
            December 8, 2015 at 10:53 am

            I don’t know the numbers but regardless if it’s one million or 12 million – that’s still a small percentage of the world population. I mean there’s 200 million people unemployed in the world right now. (Maybe you could put your untapped genius to work in trying to solve that problem instead of inventing non-existent ones on discussions like this.)
            But also – it’s a number that will rise as sure as the sun rises and sets and government officials screw with our tax money. You can quote me on that.

          • Bob Crouch
            December 8, 2015 at 2:15 pm

            Why don’t you know the numbers? Your “church” keeps trumpeting 12 million–all you need to do is listen to your “leaders.” I know the numbers, many others do, and YOU don’t? I would not consider it an “invented non-existent” problem when a “church” takes such liberties with the truth. All indicators point to the fact that there are less than 50k scientologists world-wide. Now even ONE million would still be a MIGHTY BIG LIE!

            Furthermore, there is NO reason to believe that this number is headed anywhere but down. That’s certainly what INDEPENDENT religious surveys say (which is to say nothing of others in the know whose impartiality you may question).

          • Ben Franklin
            December 8, 2015 at 8:00 pm

            Just ask yourself one simple question, how many Scientologists attend important church events? Less than 5,000 people, and I am being very generous here because it is usually somewhere around 2000 people (just enough to fit in a theater or auditorium). If there are 12 million Scientologist worldwide, this would be the worst attendance record for any religion in the world. The truth is, there are less that 50,000 Scientologists worldwide and some of them are not even active members anymore. Google “number of Scientologists worldwide”

          • Waterhorse
            December 9, 2015 at 10:13 am

            Throughout history, small groups and determined individuals have been the only makers of space in which man can walk free. Think about it. The numbers will rise as sure as the sun rises. It’s just a matter of time.

          • Bob Crouch
            December 9, 2015 at 11:21 am

            The odds of the sun rising are pretty good. But if you follow the already ongoing decline in scientology’s numbers, and you factor in that the cult’s mendacity, greed and simple pointlessness is becoming more and more public knowledge, I’m afraid that your optimism is about as well-placed as any faith in the idea that Hubbard only SAID he was a con man (he freely admitted it) and actually wasn’t.

          • Ben Franklin
            December 7, 2015 at 7:29 pm

            Any minute now the millions out there will get it. Just one minor detail, Scientology has been at it since the late 1950s and yet no progress has been made. Here is a good book for you to read to find out why. http://anonireland.com/content/wppdfcontent/books/russell_miller_bare_faced_messiah.pdf

          • Waterhorse
            December 8, 2015 at 10:33 am

            Don’t be silly. It’s been developing for over 50 years. How long did it take for Christianity to become accepted in the Roman Empire? But look at what happened when people finally adopted it.
            It requires a paradigm shift in peoples thinking. It requires that old ideologies debunk themselves and slowly atrophy. It’s not like a new carbon fiber golf club or a weight loss system. Learn patience if nothing else out of all of this and you’ll get further.

          • Ben Franklin
            December 8, 2015 at 11:08 am

            Scientology will never become like the Catholic Church because it is charges money for everything and it is built on a foundation of lies. Ask yourself, how many wives did Hubbard have. Was Hubbard ever a great husband or father?

          • Waterhorse
            December 8, 2015 at 11:53 am

            What are you smoking?
            Do you realize how much money the Catholic Church pulled in from tithes and other systems? It controlled the economy of Europe for hundreds of years. Their holdings are in the hundreds of billions of dollars even now. Your arguments don’t hold water and attacks on Hubbard are old hat and ineffective.

          • Ben Franklin
            December 8, 2015 at 12:20 pm

            Something called truth and a dose of reality. Come back to me when Scientology clears they City of Clearwater if you are still alive by then, then we can talk about how it will clear Florida. Forget about the rest of the world. It will never happen, it is all imaginary. You have wasted your entire life doing nothing. Everything you have gained in Scientology you could have gained without Scientology. How many non Scientologists do you see out here who are very successful and prospering without Scientology?

          • Waterhorse
            December 8, 2015 at 4:50 pm

            It’s ALL BAD!

          • Ben Franklin
            December 8, 2015 at 7:48 pm

            What is bad?

          • Waterhorse
            December 9, 2015 at 10:26 am

            Just read your comments – it’s all bad – may as well give up and go watch TV till the world ends. That kind of attitude is not going to improve anything.

          • Ben Franklin
            December 9, 2015 at 10:42 am

            I am just telling you the truth. Scientology cannot and will never be able to clear the planet because it is physically and practically impossible. How many times have you heard the words “this is it, planetary clearing is now a reality or within grasp” Since the 60’s, 70’s, 80’s, 90’s, not much has changed, we still live in a world full of wars, insanity, and criminality. Hubbard was a fiction writer, he came up with some very believable fictions, unfortunately people like you believe in his fictions. Do you think Scientology is making any progress in the middle east?

            Read the truth about LRH’s navy record here and open up your eyes.


          • Waterhorse
            December 10, 2015 at 12:34 pm

            Wrong but you misunderstand the concept of clearing a planet.
            As an idea of the depth of inanity in this society- the DEA got $8 billion prior to 2012 to fix the opium problem in Afghanistan. In 2013 the crop was highest ever by far. Holy crap for 8 billion you could irrigate the whole country and decimate the opium production permanently. But no – it’s the status quo that rules the roost. A small amount of sanity goes an awful long way these days. It’s amazing what lurks at the end of the money chains. I wonder who is financially prospering from the Middle East conflict? Lots of money in destruction.

          • Ben Franklin
            December 10, 2015 at 12:51 pm

            Are you a volunteer Minister?

          • Ben Franklin
            December 10, 2015 at 1:32 pm

            My goodness, Waterhorse. These people have you running around the hamster wheel thinking you are actually doing something that is changing the world. Scientology is not even making a small dent in creating a civilization without war, criminals, or insanity. If anything it is getting even worse. All you have to do is look around you. Scientology is a Total failure. A fraud of a religion only interested in milking money from the able.

          • Waterhorse
            December 11, 2015 at 10:18 am

            “Milking money from the able”?
            Of course these “able” are so stupid and gullible that they just give their money to anything – that’s how they became so able? Silly.

            Also you have no alternative solutions to these earth shaking problems so I guess you should stay reclined in your armchair critic’s La-z-boy and shout out some more profound truths to the public at large if it makes you feel worthy.

          • Bob Crouch
            December 11, 2015 at 10:26 am

            “Alternative solutions” implies that scientology actually HAS solutions.

            Hubbard has been widely unmasked as a fraud.
            There are no “clears” let alone “OT’s”
            Scientology is nothing but a money-grubbing scheme
            There are more people who have turned there back on its alleged benefits than members remaining

            Alternative to THIS?

          • December 12, 2015 at 1:49 pm

            Long ago I asked you this question, a question you dodged and skirted: What you think is meant by “clearing” the planet?

          • Ben Franklin
            December 12, 2015 at 6:19 pm

            If I didn’t answer, it is because it is a stupid question. You tend to ask from time to time.

          • Bob Crouch
            December 8, 2015 at 1:22 pm

            What are you going on about. Ben stated–correctly–“Scientology will never become like the Catholic Church because it is charges money for everything and it is built on a foundation of lies.”

            What does that have to do with tithes? RCC lets people VOLUNTARILY give a part of their income. But they’re not like scientology where you get NOTHING unless yo pay exorbitant fees–regardless of your income. In scientology, it would be “sorry, no communion for you. Communion needs to be prepaid, no refunds.”

            Hubbard’s lies and lack of qualifications are well established. You may prefer “old hat,” but I am glad that we both agree on that. That does not diminish their importance or give him credibility just because his lies are a few years old!

          • Waterhorse
            December 8, 2015 at 4:43 pm

            NO – you need to study history in the middle ages. You have it all wrong. Also – Jesus was just a carpenter – uneducated. Don’t hold that against him please!

          • Bob Crouch
            December 8, 2015 at 6:02 pm

            Medieval history justifies the culture of fraud and greed of the scientology “church” in 20/21 century modern democracies? Sure it does…

            As to Jesus, we don’t really know anything about his education. Certainly his discourses give the appearance that he knew quite a lot about the things he talked about. With educational drop-outs like Hubbard and Miscavige, the opposite is readily apparent!

          • December 12, 2015 at 1:28 pm

            Ask yourself if you have ever known anything about anything you have ever blathered about. The answer is no.

          • Bob Crouch
            December 8, 2015 at 2:20 pm

            It also requires wanting to be part of an abusive, authoritarian, pseudo-military cult organization steeped in a 50s Cold War mindset and unable to reform as “source” is source! That does not sound like some “let the old go, catch the new wave” deal to me. It sounds positively regressive!

          • Waterhorse
            December 8, 2015 at 4:36 pm

            Out with the old and in with the new. Or out with the outmoded I should say and in with the new and improved. Progress can be chaotic but it is needed – sorely needed.

          • Bob Crouch
            December 8, 2015 at 6:07 pm

            Progress? As in immersing oneself in a doctrinaire and repressive Cold War environment? Where is the progress in a culture that is committed to statically eating up and obeying the gibberish of a long gone dilettante. Is this “Back to the Future” or “Forward to the past?”

          • Waterhorse
            December 9, 2015 at 10:21 am

            Psychiatry is a moldy outmoded relic of 19th century ignorance and warmongering. It is time for a change of the guard – and ignorance must fall by the wayside to make way for real knowledge.

          • Bob Crouch
            December 9, 2015 at 11:17 am

            Your broad and unsubstantiated statement about an entire science does not reveal any knowledge or intelligence on your part. It simply reveals your dogmatism and ignorance.

            But, leaving that aside, it is ironic that the “new” that you are calling for is (a) a ripoff from Freudian psychiatry, (b) a rather outmoded 1950’s variety, and (c) cobbled together by an individual who had NO background in what he was writing about. He was simply cribbing from a popular psychology text.

            So, “psychiatry” is bad, but the whole world should adopt Hubbard’s “amateur psychiatry?” Are you nuts?

          • Waterhorse
            December 10, 2015 at 12:17 pm

            Psychiatry has attacked Scientology from day one. Only because they THINK they are threatened. Even though Scn never was intended to address the insane directly. It was directed to more rational individuals who wanted mental improvement. So psychiatry could be said to be “severely paranoid” to use their own nomenclature.

          • Bob Crouch
            December 10, 2015 at 1:33 pm

            Huh? Psychiatry has largely IGNORED scientology. You are vastly over-imagining scientology’s impact on ANYTHING.

            When dianetics first came out, it was widely panned in the scientific community. That was not some “psych attack.” That was simply common sense as dianetics was/is purely undadulterated quackery. It has NO scientific basis at all and has NEVER produced ANY results. (Hubbard tried to present “clears” to miserable failure).

            Other than that, the psychiatric/psychological professions have not had much interest in scientology at all. It scientology that is fixated on it and fighting imaginary battles with it. It would be humorous if it weren’t so pathetic!

          • Sergeant Pepper
            December 11, 2015 at 6:54 am

            Psychiatry doesn’t even know or care that scientology exists.

          • Waterhorse
            December 11, 2015 at 9:40 am

            Psychiatry doesn’t know much – but they know about Scientology and have spent millions trying to black PR the church.

          • Bob Crouch
            December 11, 2015 at 10:36 am

            “Psychiatry … have spent millions trying to black PR the church.” This is a widespread tinfoil hat conspiracy theory within scientology.

            For an unbiased observer, it appears that psychiatry has largely ignored scientology. It is true that when dianetics was first released in 1950, it was reviewed by people who were, unlike Hubbard, qualified mental health professionals. They came to the inevitable conclusion: That dianetics had no empirical basis, was full of grand claims and did not deserve to be taken seriously. This conclusion did not require a medical degree or membership in the APA; common sense sufficed!

            Other than that, the psychiatric profession and the pharma industry have simply ignored scientology. You claim, however, that they have “spent millions” to black PR scientology. While I can find evidence of scientology having spent millions to smear psychiatry (such as that silly museum in Hollywood), I find NO evidence that psychiatry has done anything similar.

            Can you please provide evidence of these alleged attacks on scientology? I’d be very interested in reviewing them.

          • Waterhorse
            December 12, 2015 at 11:02 am

            I must conclude that Scientology is beyond your range of awareness or understanding and you should definitely NOT partake in it at this time.

          • Bob Crouch
            December 12, 2015 at 11:17 am

            Sure, YOU make the paranoid and idiotic comment. And the problem is that there’s something wrong with ME, because I see it for the ruse that it is?

            So before you wax on about “beyond your range,” let’s consider a simple fact: How much “range of awareness” can it take? Hubbard pulled it out of his xxx, and you’re eating it up.

          • Bob Crouch
            December 12, 2015 at 12:35 pm

            Remember your claim: “Psychiatry doesn’t know much – but they know about Scientology and have spent millions trying to black PR the church.”

            I asked you for EVIDENCE, and the best you can come up with is a response that I probably would not make a good scientology convert. How did you figure that out? Is it that my BS meter is too sensitive to make it in your cult?

            Speaking of BS: So where’s the evidence that the “psychs” expend ANY thoughts on the cult, let alone find it necessary to black PR it? You made the claim; now back it up!

          • Sergeant Pepper
            December 11, 2015 at 7:37 pm

            Scientology black PR’s itself, psychiatry has nothing to do with it. Were you one of these scientologists back in the cult’s golden years?


          • Waterhorse
            December 12, 2015 at 10:55 am

            Golden years are about to occur – they are not in the past. Those were formative years.

          • Bob Crouch
            December 12, 2015 at 11:35 am

            The golden years are already on. Just look at how fast the cult is shrinking. At least 6 millions (probably a lot more by now) have just learned the truth through watching “Going Clear.” Courts and communities are taking an interest at the scam in their midst. Gol-den!

          • Bob Crouch
            December 9, 2015 at 11:38 am

            Scientology is an outmoded relic of 1950’s ignorance and cold-warmongering. It is time for a change of the guard – and fraud must fall by the wayside to make way for real knowledge.

          • Waterhorse
            December 8, 2015 at 10:42 am

            You have too limited a view on society. Look at the history of the Roman Catholic Church as a comparison. Look at the time it took to get accepted and the effect and influence it had on huge numbers of people – not all good influences but still a great influence. Look at the art and civilizations that were propelled forward at that time and how it’s membership rose and fell over many centuries. Religion is a powerful influence matched only by art in it’s power to transform society. Open thine eyes and have an epiphany!

          • Bob Crouch
            December 8, 2015 at 2:17 pm

            Comparing the scientology cult to the RCC. Please, that’s like comparing Madonna to Marlon Brando–after all they’re both actors…

          • Waterhorse
            December 8, 2015 at 4:12 pm

            But Madonna can sing – sort of. So she’s a sort of singing performing pseudo religious figure with sexual undertones. Big Deal. The RCC has been reviled soundly for many things and has been forced to reform and recant a number of times. It is big and powerful and very wealthy. It professes a virgin birth which has not been authenticated and other miracles which may be true but are impossible to prove. Is that a big deal? Not really. Stop the silliness right now!

          • Bob Crouch
            December 8, 2015 at 6:16 pm

            And none of this gives any credence to the desperate quest of a minor me-too cult to be compared to “legitimate” religions… Sorry, but Madonna won’t help you there.

          • sundaygirl
            December 9, 2015 at 1:06 pm

            Over the years, the RCC has owned up to many of its (past and present) bad actions. It may not have happened easily and it may not have been pretty, but it has taken at least some responsibility (indulgences, molestation, etc). Scientology can’t even decide if its “clergy” actually exists (the Sea Org does exist in some cases, doesn’t exist in others – look up Scientology lawyers using both arguments in different cases), not to mention that it tries to keep its “scriptures” secret from the world, charges people exorbitant fees for the “privilege” of being a member, etc. Scientology has taken no responsibility for any of its actions. In fact, it sues the very people it has already treated terribly. It hides behind front groups such as Narconon to lure people in. Once Scientology stops trying to trick the public into thinking it is something its not, then I’ll maybe buy the comparison to the RCC.

          • Waterhorse
            December 10, 2015 at 11:48 am

            The argument about keeping scriptures secret is not valid.
            Go to any large company or government and try to get at all their confidential documents – they’s sue you or throw you in jail. It’s a common situation where information is inappropriate for general distribution for many reasons including security and proprietary information.

          • sundaygirl
            December 10, 2015 at 12:20 pm

            That makes your organization a money-making company, a self-help business, not a religion. Major religions of the world do not try to hide their scriptures.

          • Waterhorse
            December 10, 2015 at 12:41 pm

            It’s not hidden it’s kept form general circulation until the person is at a level where it can be understood. Plus governments have all kinds of confidential info and they are not profit making groups. They LOSE money wholesale – that’s our money they lose too!

          • Bob Crouch
            December 11, 2015 at 1:57 am

            Hubbard promised that people who would find out about OT 3 before they “got there” would get sick and die. I read it. I thought it was a sick joke. Didn’t get pneumonia–not even a cold. Happily alive and calling him a liar.

            Now I’ve heard of a few suffering death from applying Hubbard properly. Cat White and Lisa McPherson come to mind. But tell me this: With all the thousands that have seen OT 3 and the rest of Hubbard’s dreck out of turn, have you EVER heard of EVEN ONE person suffering death?

            I think the ever mercenary Hubbard simply did not want people to get a FREE peek, let alone conclude that this is all BS not worth paying for.

            Since Hubbard could NOT possibly be wrong about such a serious point, any fatalities you know of?

          • Bob Crouch
            December 10, 2015 at 3:15 pm

            So you admit that scientology is just another corporation? I agree.

            Religion is free. Scientology is neither.

          • December 12, 2015 at 1:36 pm

            In modern times, the RCC authenticates miracles in order for them to be called miracles officially. Has to be before and after scientific evidence. There is not high volume official miracles. However, among the rank and file parishioners, there are many–in the millions over the years. A family from my old neighborhood had a child diagnosed by two medical doctors with leukemia. The mother made a Novena. Next trip to the doc, the leukemia disappeared. Of course, the miscreants here would ridicule this, but the family knows it was a miracle.

          • Waterhorse
            December 14, 2015 at 11:10 am

            Miracles do occur in various ways all the time as far as I can see. Just because it’s hard to prove means very little as miracles by definition are outside the realms of known science. Science doesn’t cover spiritual knowledge to a great degree.

          • December 14, 2015 at 4:37 pm

            True. Even when tested, like praying for people (or plants) and having measurable improvements, the doubters will doubt or rage. But the purpose has never been to convince them of miracles, or of wins. That is something for the individual to experience and decide.

          • Bob Crouch
            December 14, 2015 at 4:56 pm

            Quit pretending like you are a “church” like other legitimate ones, or trying to win the sympathies of uninformed others.

            Fact: Scientologists don’t pray. And pray for others–are you kidding me! The most important sacrament of scientology is to suck others dry of their money and labor–and do it for “Ron the Con.”

            So your whole example here is really null and void. It may apply to real churches whose respectability you’re so desperately trying to leech off of. In scientology terms, it does not compute!

          • sundaygirl
            December 15, 2015 at 5:46 am

            Don’t forget to pray for the fishies!

          • Bob Crouch
            December 15, 2015 at 10:18 am

            Scientologists don’t pray–certainly not for others! Stop trying to conflate scientology with respectable, credible religions who actually exercise benevolence!

          • Bob Crouch
            December 14, 2015 at 5:14 pm

            Being “outside the realms of known science” is hardly sufficient to qualify as a “miracle.” So today’s miracle is tomorrow’s science?

            Scientology does not deal in “miracles.” If offers “science” and “tech.” If you pay big bucks to the cult and they allow you to learn that “tech,” results are promised to follow that may seem miraculous, such as physical disabilities disappearing or a rising IQ. If those results fail to manifest (as they inevitably will), you’ll pay for the next set of “tech” and hope it will happen there.

            If that still fails, you blame yourself (as Ron can’t be wrong), or pay even more money. Or re-purchase some past products as they were “off source.”

            And the racket continues.

          • sundaygirl
            December 8, 2015 at 3:33 pm

            Your comparison doesn’t work, for many reasons. (For one, Catholicism started during a time when people didn’t have access to computers, research materials, phones or periodicals. We have knowledge, information and technology today to guide us. We can, with the click of a button, find out about the abuses your organization perpetrates and perpetuates. See, this is why Dianetics and Scientology were most popular in the 50s, 60s, 70s and 80s – before the Internet.) Not all religions are equal, and Catholicism’s modern numbers have never dipped quite as low as has your current membership. Flunk.

          • Waterhorse
            December 8, 2015 at 4:22 pm

            Stop the cheesy rhetoric. It isn’t working. EVERYONE knew about the abuses of the RCC. People were actually very well connected then – and many were smarter than people are today. They had a sophisticated communication system but the only difference was it was slower – so what! There was lots of time then and no traffic to fight. You don’t think burning people alive and putting ice around them to keep them alive for longer isn’t a human rights abuse?
            But there were many things about the RCC which were good and that kept the society from fighting amongst itself and destroying itself. So every angel has two faces. Which one is dominant is what you need to figure out. You are missing the importances of this area of religion entirely. Bone up!

          • sundaygirl
            December 8, 2015 at 4:37 pm

            You claim people were smarter thousands of years ago and had better communications systems? (Let me guess, you know this because, during auditing, you discovered in one of your past lives you were an Egyptian letter carrier or something.) Back then, people listened to others talk, and then told others what they heard. Ever play that game Telephone when you were little? It’s not like people were recording sermons and uploading them onto the Internet for everyone around the world to view at their leisure.

            I’m afraid you have sunk too much of your time and money into LRH.

          • Waterhorse
            December 8, 2015 at 4:49 pm

            You’ve outdone your earlier misevaluations AGAIN!
            Ever hear of the printing press?? They had newspapers. Even prior to 1400 they used writing and couriers and posted things on public boards. Plus people actually communicated directly to each other then – more than today if you really look at it.
            Why do you think they had the Reformation in Europe?

          • sundaygirl
            December 8, 2015 at 6:01 pm

            Thick as a brick, you are. You and I are clearly talking about different times. Christianity and Catholicism was over a thousand years old by the 1400s, so, I think it was already pretty well established. To apply this daft logic to Scientology, we’d have to see if it is still around in 2950 or so. As it stands, with the dwindling membership, you will be lucky to make it to 2050.

          • Waterhorse
            December 9, 2015 at 10:45 am

            I talk about the MIDDLE AGES silly! Christianity came out of Catholicism as a result of dissatisfaction – much of it in the 1400’s and 1500’s.
            This was also the period of the Inquisition. That’s when the abuses were magnified and revolt was occurring.
            They had printing and distribution occurring then. What do you think the Reformation was all about? That’s the period of change i was talking about not the inception period.
            So people didn’t communicate about things in the 60’s and seventies?? Ever hear about a telephone – or the MAIL? Or a newspaper? Go Fish. Your arguments are as substantial as turtle soup.

          • Bob Crouch
            December 9, 2015 at 11:10 am

            Substantial as turtle soup? I can tell, you really ARE writing your own materials!

            Seriously though, you may not want to bring up a topics such as “substantial.” You spend your posts hand-waving about the RCC and the 15th century, and then you are trying to use that as the “substance” for shilling for the vilest present day cult? That trick only works on the really gullible ones. And I don’t think that convincing them is your real problem here. Miscavige is already taking care of them.

          • Waterhorse
            December 10, 2015 at 12:02 pm

            You have to temper your awareness with understanding what has gone on in earlier times. History repeats itself endlessly but only if you view the bigger picture. At one time – or many times the RCC was regarded as a ragtag bunch of weirdos and later as a large corrupt bunch of authoritarians. Then they came back into favor – now they are still very popular for many reasons.
            Scientology will face a similar destiny – like it or not.

          • Bob Crouch
            December 10, 2015 at 3:04 pm

            Keep dreaming, cult boy!

          • sundaygirl
            December 9, 2015 at 11:55 am

            You can continue to downplay the influence the Internet and mobile phones and even cable television have in today’s society, but it doesn’t make your argument. There is a big difference between getting someone’s second/third/fourthhand retelling of a story and clicking a button to instantly read the actual story.

            Look, I get that you are really jazzed about Scientology and you want to think that LRH had the answers to the universe. You can think you are infested with alien spirits that only auditing can rid you of. You can spend every last dime you have buying multiple copies of LRH’s books. What you can’t do, however, is get most other people to buy it by making up comparisons and statistics. Even though your dear leader sold it to you, it doesn’t make it real just because you want it to be real for you.

          • sundaygirl
            December 9, 2015 at 12:20 pm

            Fighting with you about what is the best method of communication and when communication was at its height is pointless.

            Christianity counts 2.2 billion members today. The RCC’s 1.25 billion current members factor into that total. According to a 2012 study, the RCC gained 15 million members in the 2011 calendar year. (Now, I don’t know if those numbers are accurate; in fact, I’m sure they are probably inflated to some extent.) Is Scientology growing at that rate? (Remember, Scientology’s current membership numbers run between 25,000 to 40,000 in a world of billions according to several studies (again, probably inflated somewhat)). Do you really believe your organization will ever see a year of growth like that? (Also, please remember that your main recruitment tools are faux rehab facilities and rigged personality tests, and the biggest goals of your organization are badmouthing psychiatrists and buying buildings.)

          • Waterhorse
            December 10, 2015 at 11:55 am

            Small groups and determined individuals created the RCC. Small groups and determined individuals created Scientology. Basically people know they are spiritual beings and support that concept. Although they try to avoid the subject as it doesn’t conform to scientific practice.
            Psychiatry is a washed up pseudo science that’s putting hundreds of millions of people on heavy drugs. it just doesn’t make the grade in this enlightened day and age. It must reform totally or face extinction.

          • Bob Crouch
            December 10, 2015 at 3:13 pm

            “Psychiatry is a washed up pseudo science that’s putting hundreds of millions of people on heavy drugs. it just doesn’t make the grade in this enlightened day and age.”

            Not that you offer any evidence. But even if you WERE right, you should really tell your whole story. Namely that psychiatry ought to be replaced with scientology. Of course, as we all know scientology does not even qualify as a “pseudo-science.” So what good would THAT do? Do you really want more Lisa McPherson, Cat White and similar cases? Think of all the people who have died from scientology quackery in Narconon alone.

          • Waterhorse
            December 11, 2015 at 10:06 am

            Psychiatry must reform and get real or it will face extinction. Just a matter of time.

          • Bob Crouch
            December 11, 2015 at 10:22 am

            You keep repeating this with the zeal of the true believer. All because your head has been filled with all the scientology cult nonsense.

            Of course, you are not really telling the truth here. Scientology does NOT believe that psychiatry must reform. Instead, it believes that psychiatry must be replaced with the teachings of L Ron Hubbard. Now think about the INSANITY of that statement!

            1. Hubbard was unable to pass one single basic science class. He flunked out after his freshman year
            2. Hubbard was an impostor who would refer to himself by all kinds of academic titles–none of which he ever earned
            3. Hubbard was not conducting any scientific study on which he based his “teachings.” He simply pulled it out of his xxx
            4. Demonstrably, he copied from Freud, although he clearly did not understand him very well and plagiarized ideas that Freud had already abandoned. So psychiatry is “evil” but “psychiatry light” by a complete dilettante is “the ultimate?” Huh?
            5. Hubbard’s “research” has NEVER been peer reviewed. Which is understandable. After all, who exactly would be “peer” to an amateur fantasist like this?

            With this crud informing your “thinking” on the subject of psychiatry, please forgive me for not taking you seriously when you’re spouting such sweeping statements.

          • Avid Miskaridge
            December 15, 2015 at 4:46 pm

            The reason why all you culties are having a very difficult time with the world is that Hubbard never predicted the shit storm that the internet would unleash on collective cult mind that is Scientology. You as a Scientologist fight every battle with an insidious and chronic case of glaucoma. It is almost unfair to argue with you as you will always be at a disadvantage. It would be akin to a farmer (me) telling a pig (you) its breath smells like shit.
            Scientology seems to be one of the leading causes of blindness and cognitive dissonance. Perhaps it is time to start working on your public relations.

          • Waterhorse
            December 16, 2015 at 11:53 am

            It’s one thing to be vision impaired – quite another to be stone blind and think you have 20/20 vision in 360 degrees.
            This is the problem that we as Scientologists face in many instances of this type. It’s like talking to a blind man who thinks he actually sees the big picture. Frustrating till you understand the level of awareness you are dealing with.

          • Avid Miskaridge
            December 16, 2015 at 12:00 pm

            The problem that ‘you’ as Scientologist face, is that your blindness is caused by having your head stuck right up your asses while Miscavige robs you. My level of awareness includes knowing that whatever you have to offer—no one in their right mind is buying anymore.

          • Bob Crouch
            December 16, 2015 at 1:34 pm

            Or perhaps it’s more like a Kool Aid drinker trying to convince others to take a sip! I don’t doubt that scientology makes sense to 30-40,000 people world-wide inside the bubble. To the other 7 billion of us? Not so much!

          • December 12, 2015 at 1:47 pm

            You have hit on why we had the crucial and long project of locating, verifying, restoring, and preserving the precise writings of LRH, and then storing it securely. It is a very good and comforting thing.

          • Ben Franklin
            December 12, 2015 at 3:50 pm

            Just a whole bunch of Squirrels led by Chief Squirrel David Miscavige himself

          • Bob Crouch
            December 8, 2015 at 6:14 pm

            You’re going on about the RCC in the middle ages–as if that explains or justifies the atrocities committed by the scientology cult TODAY. Huh?

          • December 12, 2015 at 1:38 pm

            On a tape, LRH credits the Catholic Church with civilizing Europe. He also speaks well of AA in two places. Cool, huh?

          • Bob Crouch
            December 12, 2015 at 2:48 pm

            LRH also claims that there is “no Christ,” that Jesus was an “implant” and that Jesus was a homosexual pedophile. Still cool?

          • Waterhorse
            December 14, 2015 at 11:01 am

            Yes. Exactly the point. People got tired of immorality running the society down and messing up the culture so they gladly embraced something that held a few standards. Pretty good standards too as they hold up even today to a large degree judging by the popularity of the RCC.
            Just curious – who is AA?

          • December 14, 2015 at 4:35 pm

            Alcoholics Anonymous. The original program as found in the the Big Book (Alcoholics Anonymous is the title) is excellent. It has been ripped off by psychs who altered and spun it. But the more purely the book is followed, the more perfectly you can make it work for you.

            As for standards, yes, the 10 Commandments alone is worth the effort.

          • Bob Crouch
            December 14, 2015 at 5:02 pm

            Touching! So AA is ok–as long as you keep “psychs” out of it. Why? Because Ron hates psychs. Why? Because psychs called his “research” a fraud–as if that should be a surprise to ANYBODY.

            But Ron lifted a bunch of stuff from Freud (granted, without understanding him all that well) and even acknowledged him before becoming “source.” Shut up and hate the psychs! It’s in the ‘scriptures!’

          • Waterhorse
            December 15, 2015 at 11:19 am

            Ron isn’t the only one to hate the psychs.
            Google Psychiatric Survivors and many other groups to find the level of hatred involved towards these fakers from people who’ve actually suffered their “treatments”. They have almost NO real public support. 90% oft their support is bought at a premium from the government and lobby groups. Billions of dollars required to keep their scam going strong.

          • Bob Crouch
            December 15, 2015 at 12:00 pm

            Your post really demonstrates nothing but bigotry. You hate them, you call them names, you judge them and yet this is clearly based on no information. I wonder how you talk about blacks, gays or Catholics. Actually, no need to embarrass yourself by telling me; I have a pretty good idea.

            BTW, you’re walking on thin ice when mentioning “Ron” and “faker” in such proximity of each other. Then again, it’s probably ok since most folks have already been making that connection without your help for decades.

          • Waterhorse
            December 16, 2015 at 12:05 pm

            Bigotry? I think the pot is calling the kettle black there. You’re not exactly the paragon of unbiased virtue that your posts try to imply. Look at the facts and you’ll see that psychiatry has no public support and is living on borrowed time and other peoples money.

          • Bob Crouch
            December 16, 2015 at 1:32 pm

            YOU were the one to bring up the term “bigotry.” I merely pointed out how well this term applied to your own fact-free rant!

            So it’s a “fact” that psychiatry is “living on borrowed time?” Can you substantiate that “fact?” There are plenty of facts pointing to the dwindling membership and popularity of scientology. Facts put forth by unbiased authorities conducting “religious” surveys, to name just one. 65 years after dianetics, there are still NO “facts” to support that Hubbard knew what he was talking about. In fact, with every passing year he is becoming MORE discredited as a person as well as an “authority” on ANYTHING.

            However, there are no “facts” to support that all of a sudden less qualified medical professionals are embracing psychiatry as a legitimate means of helping patients. There are no facts to support that governments are backing off supporting psychiatry, regulating the profession for abuses or malpractice or anything else along those lines–in not even ONE developed country. There are no “facts” to support that universities are backing off their research and education. No facts, that there is a dwindling number of medical professionals entering that profession. So what facts do YOU have?

            As to “other people’s money,” you ought to tread carefully there. There is rapidly growing discontent among tax payers who wish to no longer financially support a rapaciously greedy and exploitative cult such as scientology. You won’t have to google far to find evidence of that. However, I have yet to find petitions to de-fund psychiatry or public outrage that our tax dollars support psychiatric research. Outside of the cult’s quixotic efforts that no one notices anyway. Not even the psychiatric profession itself finds it necessary to defend itself against scientology’s wild-eyed and fact-free allegations. Because outside of the cult bubble, NO ONE notices!

            Remember Cruise’s rant on the Matt Lauer show. Did that lead to a public outcry that psychiatry needs to stop. Or did that lead to a PR disaster for Tom? I think we all know the answer to that one. His own studio bosses dumped him in embarrassment!

          • Waterhorse
            December 17, 2015 at 12:09 pm

            Here’s one about the psychs:

          • Bob Crouch
            December 17, 2015 at 12:33 pm

            Like every science, psychiatry is imperfect and evolving. On that count, scientology’s got it beat. It’s perfect and resistant to any kind of evolution. It offers perfect certainty.

            As long as you can get behind the idea that the planet’s problems are caused by the thetans Xenu vaporized, and that the path to mental health is one long exorcism. As well as the idea that all answers lie with one guy only and must be obtained at extortionate prices. Curiously, from an organization that claims to want to save the planet but which seems seems to be a lot more about looting the wallets of the planet.

          • Avid Miskaridge
            December 18, 2015 at 12:44 am

            Was this article aimed at discrediting psychiatry? If so, once again–major fail. An article published in a Naturopathic newsletter fails to meet any credible reference standards. You’d get an “F” on your dissertation. Are you familiar with academic standards?

            1.) The author Gary Null “PhD” is a well documented quack with very questionable credentials.
            His PhD:
            The Union Institute’s Ph.D. program came under scrutiny by the Ohio Board of Regents in the late 1990s, early 2000s which culminated in its 2002 Reauthorization Report. The report was critical of the Union Institute’s Ph.D. program, noting in particular that ” … expectations for student scholarship at the doctoral level were not as rigorous as is common for doctoral work … ” (OBR 2002 Reauthorization Report, page 13) As a result, The Union was put on probation, the Union Graduate School was dissolved and the Ph.D. program was restructured.[1]

            2.) Much like Jenna Elfman, Gary Null is an AIDS denialist, pretty sure he also thinks fluoride, vaccines are the boogeyman.

            3.) http://www.quackwatch.org/04ConsumerEducation/null.html

            So do you see above? That’s how you provide factual evidence. I think you do have a serious case of denial.

          • Waterhorse
            December 18, 2015 at 10:39 am

            Interesting you attack Gary Null’s credentials but say nothing about the article itself which is 100% documented truth from start to finish and totally exposes the psychs for who they really are. The article is totally accurate.and quite comprehensive. I could care less where he got his PhD from frankly. A newspaper reporter exposing the psychs doesn’t need any degrees to be on point. A fact is a fact and you really don’t even need a high school diploma to figure that out. Psychs are on borrowed time at this point.

          • Bob Crouch
            December 18, 2015 at 1:10 pm

            You are so gullible! Where is the 100% documentation, and “truth from start to finish?”

            5 minutes with google tells you what Null’s reputation is. So you got one guy who agrees with some of the insanity of scientology’s ideas–and he’s a quack.

            So you don’t care where he got his PhD? You’d probably say you don’t care where Dr. Hubbard got his either? Let me assure you, it matters! Why would a guy who did not even make it through his first semester without failing across the board later pretend that he had achieved several academic qualifications. Because Hubbard’s a fraud through and through! Now maybe Null isn’t quite that bad. However, it says a lot about a person’s character, integrity and agenda if they try to pad their credentials (Null) or lie about them outright (Hubbard). Once you know that, you can’t believe anything else they say either.

          • Waterhorse
            December 22, 2015 at 11:29 am

            Narrow mindedness is all for you.
            Just because Steve Jobs didn’t have a degree doesn’t mean I should not buy an I phone – or a couple of them if I recognize they are good. I’m sure people with degrees bought I phones as well.
            We shouldn’t shelve our own observations and only follow those with degrees or uniforms. That is preposterous.

          • Bob Crouch
            December 22, 2015 at 11:59 am

            Steve Jobs never lied and claimed that we should listen to him because he has a degree. Nor did he ever pretend that he alone had engineered the iPhone.

            Null uses questionable degrees to pretend that he has credibility that he does not possess. Hubbard LIED about degrees (he barely made it through high school and flunked out BIG after his freshman year).

            I did NOT say that people without degrees have nothing to contribute. However, it is quite clear that people who LIE and PRETEND that they have certain qualifications should NOT be trusted under ANY circumstances!

            Are you meaning to tell me that next time you go to a doctor or dentist, you don’t care whether s/he has a proper medical degree?

          • Waterhorse
            December 23, 2015 at 10:03 am

            The whole destructive pseudo-science called psychiatry is a lie.
            A lie that has undermined education, health care, the legal system, and drug rehab for decades. It must recant and eat crow.

          • Bob Crouch
            December 23, 2015 at 12:43 pm

            I know there are a few tinfoilers in the scientology cult who think that. But I have to inform you, this puts you way off to the edges of even the lunatic fringe. And it does not help that you offer NO arguments that would make a person want to re-consider whether you’re on to something.

            Even after Cathriona White and Lisa McPherson (and numerous other victims of scientology quackery of less known names), you really want to go THERE?

          • December 24, 2015 at 5:19 pm

            Blob Grinch, you can’t stop lying. Jobs did not have a degree: ” Jobs briefly attended Reed College in 1972 before dropping out, deciding to travel through India in 1974 and study Buddhism.” I believe he attended only a few months.

            So you just make up stuff, you always have. It’s been shown over and over and over and over. Waterhorse gives you the straight scoop, and you come back with lies.

          • Bob Crouch
            December 24, 2015 at 6:03 pm

            Speaking of lies: Since reading and comprehension is clearly not your strong suit (what is it with extremist cults and their aversion to education anyway?), let’s recap what I already said once.

            1. Jobs never completed his college education.

            2. Unlike Hubbard, he never lied, and pretended that he had acquired all kinds of imaginary degrees.

            3. This is not a bit different from what I previously stated.

            4. If our roles were reversed, I would now accuse you of willful lying and lecture you about how you always do. Not wanting to sink to the cult m. o., I will skip that step.

            The degree of your credibility and the intelligence of your posts (or absence thereof) speak for themselves.

          • Bob Crouch
            December 24, 2015 at 7:40 pm

            Now this is fun: This is what fellow cult guy keeponlearning had to say about name-mangling:

            “Seriously? Name insults are really second-grade intellect.”

            Hypocritically, you up-voted his statement! What were you thinking?

          • Ben Franklin
            December 24, 2015 at 8:49 pm

            L Ron Hubbard did not have a college degree either except the ones from his own bogus college. L Ron’s Transcript from George Washington University Illustrates just how bad of a student Hubbard was despite the grandiose claims of being a nuclear physicist.


          • Bob Crouch
            December 25, 2015 at 11:08 am

            Well, who’s the liar now? Time for you to correct your post as all it does is demonstrate that you are incapable of reading fairly straightforward posts and NOT lie about them. Pretty pathetic, coming from a cult that brags about its communications courses!

          • Bob Crouch
            December 18, 2015 at 3:53 pm

            “Dr” Null is not a newspaper reporter. He is a guy of extremely murky qualifications. It appears that he obtained both a “PhD” and a BS from diploma mills. For variety’s sake, he sometimes credits himself as an MS as well, although there’s no evidence he ever earned one. He did, however, manage to obtain what appears to be a legitimate associate’s degree from a state junior college in, well, West Virginia. A bit like Hubbard when it comes to titles (although the Hubb was far less qualified).

            He bills himself as a nutritionist and has sold all kinds of dubious supplements over the years–not an area famous for its great ethics and firm grip on science. He is on the radar of various organizations such as “quackwatch.” He is also a radio talk show host with a bent for conspiracy theories.

            So a conspiracy nut with a questionable “PhD” in nutrition (but a bona fide assoicates degree in business ) is the “expert witness” against the “psychs.” So much so that you make him out as a definitive authority whose voice should be heard over anyone else’s.

            Are you truly THAT gullible? If nothing else, this shows how desperate scientologists are when it comes to defending their quacky views!

          • Waterhorse
            December 22, 2015 at 11:20 am

            Like I say – You don’t need a degree to spot a serpent in your living room. Or a nest of serpents like the psychs draining funds to pursue their nefarious goals and creating a drug dependent society as they’ve been doing for decades.

          • Bob Crouch
            December 22, 2015 at 11:39 am

            You really sound like one of those folks living in their mom’s basement with a big bong and a head full of conspiracy theories underneath the old tinfoil hat.

            Sorry, but do you REALLY want to talk about “draining funds?” Scientology was founded by a guy who was already a small-time con man, L Ron Hubbard, for one purpose only, to make money for himself. He made that perfectly clear in conversations with numerous individuals.

            No wonder that scientology is so ruthlessly robbing people of their entire financial possessions! Imagine going to a real “church” such as the RCC, and having to make a large advance payment before you are allowed to take communion. Or give confession. Imagine them secretly taping inside the confession booth and distributing a tape to others, or making it public if you decide to leave the church. Speaking of leaving: If you do, your spouse will be ordered to divorce you and your closest family will be required to break off contact.

            That’s a “religion?” So glad you mentioned “nefarious goals!” Good topic!

          • Avid Miskaridge
            December 21, 2015 at 1:17 am

            What do you know about chemtrails?

          • Waterhorse
            December 22, 2015 at 11:07 am

            Who needs chemtrails when you have a whole population of psychs feeding over 100 million people dangerous antidepressants for diseases they don’t have. Lets get all the 8 year olds on Ritalin and other class 2 narcotics and ADHD drugs for a theoretical disease. Why spray it in the air when you can just convince the parents to shove it down their throats?

          • Avid Miskaridge
            December 22, 2015 at 11:42 am

            My suggestion is you will likely need a psychogeriatric consult in the very near future as your delusions progress into dementia. I hope you at least have medical coverage via Scientology.
            How can you be against psychiatric abuses but not against the physical abuses/human rights violations/theft of Scientology? Abuse is abuse, whether you are an incompetent psychiatrist or ignorant scientologist. I will fight both.

          • Waterhorse
            December 23, 2015 at 10:12 am

            Did you know that there was a “mental illness” called “Mathematics Disorder” in the DSM? (psychiatry’s diagnostic bible) for people having trouble learning math? There’s a Big pharma drug to go with too! There’s also a “Caffeine Related Disorder” if you go to Starbucks too often. Every year they add a new profit centre to their toolkit. Abysmal.

          • Avid Miskaridge
            December 23, 2015 at 12:49 pm

            I often Imagine a group of individuals being coerced into taking all these very expensive big pharma courses and buying all these big pharma textbooks in the hopes of furthering themselves. They’re not in themselves bad people just employees of Big Pharma trying to do good.

            The catch though, is that the Big Pharma company they have been recruited into and now work for, charges all its employees for the courses/textbooks/training requisite to do its paid work.

            In addition, the well funded Big Pharma company proceeds to take money from their employees’ paycheck with every opportunity under the guise of expanding Big Pharma treatment facilities across the world. This is a good thing, employees are told–“We must eradicate the world of mental illness and wage war against all the Naturopaths or the NATS”.

            The Big Pharma company then creates an elite organization reserved only for the most compliant employees to do work across the world. This is a volunteer organization within Big Pharma though; members are not paid.

            Big Pharma sets up and buys buildings all over the world from which to offer its expensive courses and continue to dole out medication at all costs.
            If the building employees are working in, falls into disrepair, it is up to the employees to pool together and raise money to repair it; often paying out of their own pockets.

            Big Pharma applauds efforts of its organizations by asking them to raise even more money to increase the rate of expansion across the world. The more money that is raised, the better the particular organization appears to be functioning in the eyes of the Big Pharma leader.

            Local businesses are targeted for money, under Big Pharma’s guise to eradicate the ills of the world by its humanitarian force and front groups using their instructional doctrine.

            Big Pharma leader, tells its employees that they need to do more to spread the Big Pharma message across the universe and must now re-do some the courses. Courses, of course are paid for by the employee.

            Big pharma then recruits members into its organization by attending large gatherings and sitting outside in public handing out big pharma information. The public is then psychoanalized and told that their problems could better be solved by taking a very inexpensive pharma course. Try it if you like it, sort of thing.

            Big pharma then tells an interested member of the pubic that they need to continue taking courses only offered by them in order to be a good citizen. At some point, Big Pharma’s courses get more expensive and if you want to progress you must buy them. Fear not though because Big Pharma has a way you can pay these courses off, you can work for Big Pharma. You enthusiastically enlist.

            The other thing Big Pharma forces its employees to do is buy textbooks only published by its own presses. Books authored by only one person, no other author is allowed or used as this is contrary to Big Pharma’s message. It must remain the only published source of information for all its employees, no questions asked. The terminology contained in its material is made up and comprises the majority of Big Pharma’s manual called the DMS-V codes.

            Employees can not contest the information in those textbooks, worse if they are caught criticizing it, they’re interrogated to see if they have something against big pharma and its leader. Faithfulness to big pharma’s doctrine is tested often to ensure compliance of its employees. If the leader of Big Pharma doesn’t like you, or you do something to harm its reputation you are sent off for retraining.

            Throughout its history, Big Pharma has many former employees speak out against it and many news stories are reported that shine a big light on Big Pharma’s abuses against its employees. Many of those employees go on to write about Big Pharma’s abuses. Big Pharma spends millions of dollars of its employees wages to combat allegations against it.
            The company is taken to court on many occasions and a lot of its secretive doctrine is leaked to the public via court documents.

            In efforts to control its employees, Big pharma’s instruction is to avoid any negative information published against it. Attack any individual speaking out against it.
            It responds by training its employees on how to treat threats against its doctrine/agenda by putting its employees through courses paid out of their own pocket.

            The employees are told to avoid this information and critics talking bad against it because this negative information is harmful and will push you back in Big Pharma training . You have to repeat courses again until you get it right, at your own cost.

            Big Pharma’s treatment of people who disagree with it however is not in congruence with the supposed good they portray in public. It tells its employees that if their families are not in agreement of their doctrine that they should no longer be part of their life. If their family disagrees with the Big Pharma’s doctrine and all the medication prescriptions it writes, they are told to never speak to them. Even if a friend speaks out about supposed psychiatric abuses, the friend is no longer spoken to and ties are cut off as well. The employee must report all of this to big pharma’s head office and the employee is then themselves then questioned to ascertain if allegiance to Big Pharma remains intact.

            If an employee is found to be Out-Pharma Ethics, Big pharma then responds by questioning the employee until they break down. I will join you in the fight against Big Pharma!

          • Waterhorse
            December 24, 2015 at 6:46 am

            I think I have “Mathematics Disorder” as calculus is quite challenging for me. Perhaps a boatload of class 2 narcotics and a few types of anti-depressants will get me through the Christmas holidays in fine fettle! Happy Holidays!

          • Bob Crouch
            December 24, 2015 at 10:54 am

            Cult disorder, more likely. No narcotics for that.

          • December 24, 2015 at 5:28 pm

            I must have psychiatric disorder because psychiatry makes no sense to me.
            Check my comments in my profile. There are a couple you might find interesting although they are addressed to Blob Grinch and gang.

          • Bob Crouch
            December 24, 2015 at 6:24 pm

            Actually, it’s your comments that make little or no sense. Other than their childishness, you reply to comments that people never made. As if being in a cult doesn’t make you appear dim enough, you just have to amass further proof. Your prerogative, of course. After all, outside of your cult, it’s a free country

          • Bob Crouch
            December 24, 2015 at 7:38 pm

            This is what fellow cult guy keeponlearning had to say about name-mangling:

            “Seriously? Name insults are really second-grade intellect.”

            Hypocritically, you up-voted his statement!

          • Ben Franklin
            December 24, 2015 at 7:50 pm

            There is a reason why you don’t understand or hate psychiatry. It is not your fault

          • Avid Miskaridge
            December 25, 2015 at 9:57 pm

            Enjoy your narcotics and psychotropics dear Waterhorse. Don’t let anyone, specially Big Pharma take you away from your family–they’re known to do that. Down with Big Pharma eh?

          • Bob Crouch
            December 23, 2015 at 8:06 pm

            And this somehow supports that ALL of psychiatry is bogus? Even more unlikely: How does this demonstrate that a clueless dilettante like Hubbard had ALL the insights about the human mind?

          • Bob Crouch
            December 22, 2015 at 11:45 am

            Diseases they don’t have? How do you know that? Do you have ANY medical or public health qualification? Or are you just saying this because the scientology cult tells you to? You DO know that Hubbard did not have ANY qualifications at all, right? You are aware that when he was calling himself “doctor,” “engineer,” “nuclear physicist,” or even “commodore,” he was lying. You know that, right?

          • Waterhorse
            December 22, 2015 at 11:04 am

            Who needs chemtrails when you have a whole population of psychs feeding over 100 million people dangerous antidepressants for diseases they don’t have. Lets get all the 8 year olds on Ritalin and other class 2 narcotics and ADHD drugs for a theoretical disease. Why spray it in the air when you can just shove it down their throats?

          • Bob Crouch
            December 24, 2015 at 8:40 pm

            This web site is known as the Townsend Letter, for alternative “medicine,” circulation 6000. Wow, they’re even smaller than scientology!

            It’s telling that they themselves find it necessary to post the following disclaimer:

            “We encourage reports which frequently are not data-based but are anecdotal. Hence, information presented may not be proven or factually correct.”

            Again, this is THEIR OWN view of themselves! Confidence inspiring? It should come as no surprise that the Townsend Letter is listed as a “nonrecommended periodical” by the website Quackwatch.

            Also on the quackwatch watchlist is Mr. Null, the author of the article you reference. He lists himself as PhD. However, a bit more research will quickly show that his degree is almost as questionable as Hubbard’s “degrees” were.

            Now, I am not saying that it necessarily requires a PhD to be able to disseminate useful information. However, someone who inflates their academic achievements–in other words deceives–says a lot about their character and nullifies their credibility. You wonder what such a person–such as Hubbard or Null–is trying to hide!

          • Waterhorse
            December 28, 2015 at 11:10 am

            This Just In…
            A NEW wonder drug that handles Mathematics Disorder” in your child. Your child will ROMP through math class with a good dose of this dangerous SSRI combined with a NEW class 2 narcotic.
            ALL THE EXPERTS agree! THIS is it! Published in every medical journal from coast to coast and advertised on TV!
            (Just remember to read the 30 lines of side effects and a few that aren’t mentioned before gulping it down as it may well rot your liver and/or kill you). Back to class kids.

          • Bob Crouch
            December 28, 2015 at 12:38 pm

            And your point? You’re trying to spread hatred against an entire branch of the medical profession. Why? Because your cult leader told you to.

            Why would he do that, even though he “borrowed” so much from that profession? Because he has been the laughing stock of every serious professional since he claimed to be the first and only one to understand the human mind.

            So you keep raging. Not because you have a clue what you’re talking about but because that’s what people in cults do. And you offer no alternative. Scientoloy does nothing to help people with disabilities, other than relieve them of the burden of their bank account. It’s fraud–pure and simple.

            You sound like a racist collecting newspaper clips of happenings in the blighted parts of town, telling me triumphantly: “See, I told you “they” are genetically inferior.

          • Bob Crouch
            December 30, 2015 at 12:42 pm

            Of course, we also know that a common side effect of scientology “treatment” is death. Lisa McPherson, Cathriona White, and many others attest to that.

          • Bob Crouch
            January 2, 2016 at 3:18 pm

            OK, I bit, and did my own research on this alarming “new” disorder.

            First off, there is nothing new about it. The recognition and research of dyscalculia goes back to 1949. It is simply one of many specific forms of learning disorders thought to be present in 3-6% of the general population.

            Before the discovery of specific learning disabilities, children (or adults) who were afflicted by them were generally thought to be “dumb” and written off as being a waste of educators’ time as they would not respond to “one size fits all” educational approaches. Consequently, their prospects in life were limited, and society at large would pay the cost for these “underachievers.” I fail to see where you could find fault with discovering specific learning disabilities and why you would prefer a less enlightened approach and its considerable cost to the individuals and to all of us.

            Second, you make it sound as if the remedy to dyscalculia is the automatic and thoughtless drugging of the sufferer. This is FAR from the truth! Many web sites outline a long list of remedies, none of which include drugging. The preferred treatment methods are typically behavioral; they involve special education methods to address such a learning deficit. Again, I fail to see where customizing education methods to special needs is anything but positive.

            Which brings us to the question of “alternatives.” What do you have in mind to address this learning disability? Do you really believe scientology, the fantasy product of a pulp sci-fi writer who was unable to pass a single math class and yet made wild and unfounded claims about his own educational achievements (“Dr,” “MDiv,” “scientist,” “nuclear physicist,” “commodore,” “civil engineer,” to name but a few) offers such alternatives?

            Hubbard was given to great claims, such as being able to raise people’s IQ–as long as they paid up lots and in advance. Yet, NONE of these claims has EVER been demonstrated in ANY way, shape or form as even marginally valid. Other than being extremely adept at “clearing” people’s bank accounts and enslaving them in the confines of a “religious” cult, his methods have failed. So where is his answer to mathematical learning disabilities? Scientology’s virulent hatred toward the medical and psychological professions does NOTHING to empower those whose disabilities need to be diagnosed and addressed–most often WITHOUT the use of drugs!

          • Waterhorse
            January 4, 2016 at 10:45 am

            Unfortunately the psychs had already insinuated themselves as education experts prior to 1949 and had started their own “education reforms” in the system which have so enriched all of our lives. Any education system that doesn’t know how to handle problem kids without pumping kids full of drugs is a system that needs a swift kick in the gluteus maximus. That’s what it’s there for.

            PS – Here’s an excellent article on the brain boys and their miracle cures, wonder drugs and Hallelujha snake oils.

          • Bob Crouch
            January 4, 2016 at 6:24 pm

            Why are we even having this discussion? Let’s get honest here for once. You are hating an entire profession because Hubbard told you to. Even the bigoted terminology makes that clear; some hate the nigs, some hate the slopes, some hate the f*gs. And you hate the “psychs.” Just like all other bigotry, you do so without any real reason. And without really knowing any of them. You do so indiscriminately and obediently. Fine, knock yourself out!

            But know this: The moment someone asks you any questions about your beliefs, you will always be revealed as a bigoted, ignorant mouth breather.

            Hubbard (the cult founder, El Con Hubbard) hated “psychs” because they laughed when he presented his “research”–as well they should have.

            Miscavige (the current cult leader) explained to Koppel that scientology hates “psychs” because of “Siberia USA.” This project was initiated a few decades ago as a conspiracy of “psychs” to gain control over our society. But scientology initiative led to its defeat in House and Senate. Miscavige offered proof. Of course, he never delivered it! Why? Because he lied about the whole thing!

            Cruise delivers a rant on Lauer’s show claiming that only scientologists know the history of scientology. Then Dr. Cruise gives women health advice for a female affliction! What an arrogant little d*ck!

            Is joining this club of ignorance, bigotry, fear and hatred truly the best you can do? Your posts make it abundantly clear that when it comes to this subject, you do not have even the faintest idea what you are talking about. Yet just like those folks with the pointy white hats and robes, you blindly spew whatever you’re told to! Come on, you are surely better than that!

          • Waterhorse
            January 6, 2016 at 10:25 am

            Aren’t the people in the pointy white hats and robes psychiatrists on a weekend pass?
            I actually don’t hate psychiatrists as I know they are only suffering from their own actions. But the facts remain that they are a destructive and purposeless pseudo science on the way out.

            Out with the old and in with the new.
            The price of progress.

          • Bob Crouch
            January 6, 2016 at 12:22 pm

            You’re giving yourself too little credit. Of course, you are directing IRRATIONAL hatred against an entire profession. Just like El Con Hubbard wanted you to. I am saying this for two reasons:

            1. Other than platitudes and judgmental characterizations, you are entirely unable to establish even a SHRED of an argument why one should be so dismissive of psychiatry. Other than “El Con told me so.” Well, El Con was a bad judge of things scientific. The dude couldn’t even make it through freshman science. Quite pathetic!

            2. “In with the new?” What would THAT be. You NEVER say. Why? Because you know if you did, you’d be laughed out of this forum in two seconds flat! Of course, your alternative is scientology.

            Speaking of “out with the old.” Dianetics and scientology have been around for 65 years. During that time, they have failed to establish even the least credibility. They are universally understood to be quackery. Which is one of the reasons why the “church” of scientology claims that its “teachings” are a “religion.” So you want to replace a branch of the medical science with a “religion?”

            Keep drinking the Kool Aid. But be aware that outside of the cult bubble, the rest of us isn’t buying it! Why do you think the cult is shrinking and becoming more odious to the rest of the world year after year?

          • Waterhorse
            January 11, 2016 at 10:57 am

            You need to fully research psychiatry. Just don’t ever go into one of their institutions for “treatment”. That would be putting yourself at extreme risk.

          • Bob Crouch
            January 11, 2016 at 1:51 pm

            Do I? Maybe YOU need to do some research instead of letting a cult do the thinking for you. Don’t you know that Hubbard had ZERO credibility on this subject.

          • Avid Miskaridge
            December 16, 2015 at 11:53 pm

            I think you’ve mistaken psychiatry with Scientology’s story–you’ve lost the war with psychiatry because as a practice it is not pretending to be a religion. As with other sciences, it is not perfect at all, it is riddled with flaws. That is how science and the scientific process work. At the very least, science welcomes criticism and is open to heated debates.

            The fight against this supposed evil psychiatry villain is the carrot that LRH and now Miscavige has put in front of you, so as to “keep Scientology working” or as a business, keep generating money. You likely identify more with the fight against “evil” psychiatry than you do with what Scientology stands for. I get it, you may have a dog in that fight–perhaps a son or another family member who is struggling with mental health issues who are quite real to them but to you are made-up constructs of “psychs”. https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/3ee78c1ea3426c3ac6d993c81b3fa9f6fcaf2a532cad7e13dfcb81915dab873d.jpg

            I personally don’t care that you waste your money, it’s yours–but at least acknowledge that separating families and disconnecting them from one another is abuse. Imagine being told by the government, that you were no longer able to talk to or associate with your young children as they have been declared enemies of the state. Absurd right?

            No government, religion or set of beliefs should be able to break the bonds between family members or friends.

            The next time you decide to sit in front of a keyboard and hunt-and-peck at a response, please ensure that it has some credible evidence attached to it, otherwise you’ve demonstrated that the superior communication skills Scientology has afforded you over the last decade that you’ve spent inside the bubble, has failed you miserably. Moreover, please point me to an independent peer-reviewed academic study that demonstrates the splendor and omnipotence that is Scientology in helping anyone physically or mentally (key words are independent and academic). I don’t care about any other religions, I am asking for specific Scientology examples. So let’s have it, master of communication.

          • Waterhorse
            December 17, 2015 at 11:53 am

            The fact that the disconnection policy has been abused in Scientology in some instances does not validate psychiatry’s abysmal human rights record.

            Go to Psychiatric Survivors or any number of anti-psych sites that have no connection with Scn. to see that. They’ve got a well deserved reputation as amoral butchers. Look at the Wiki Quotes from ex WFMH leader G Brock Chisolm to see where this guy was coming from – totally oppressive and fascistic. Here’s one of those quotes for you:

            “What basic psychological distortion can be found in every civilization of which we know anything? The only psychological force capable of producing these perversions is morality – the concept of right and wrong.”
            “The re-interpretation and eventual eradication of the concept of right and wrong are the belated objectives of nearly all of psychotherapy.”
            Totally Insane.
            Read more at: http://www.azquotes.com/quote/1181196

            By the way – disconnection means that the person’s family cannot associate with them IF they are active in the Church. If the family members were put out by the disconnection or disagreed with it – they could simply exit from the Scientology group until they were satisfied the situation was repaired to their satisfaction.

            That way they would be able to freely associate with the excluded family member but would not be able to be active in the Church during that time. So if the family members remained in the Church it would mean that they agreed with the decision and they are free to make that decision themselves.

            Many Churches AND Governments have used excommunication or expulsion to keep their group together in the past. It is a valid group strategy in certain instances.

          • Bob Crouch
            December 17, 2015 at 12:16 pm

            Coming from a guy who believes that the path to mental health is the surrender of one’s will and nest egg to a cult, followed by the exorcism of body thetans which we are all infested with due to a galactic overlord… I guess I should not be too surprised about your outlook from underneath the tinfoil hat.

          • Avid Miskaridge
            December 17, 2015 at 1:11 pm

            Thank you for spending the time to respond to my requests.

          • Waterhorse
            December 18, 2015 at 11:01 am

            G Brock Chisolm was an infamous fascistic goon and deserves all the ridicule I can level at him – and then some! A white coat and a degree on the wall doesn’t mean much when you have a lunatic sporting them! I don’t need a reference or a degree or even very good eyesight to recognize an Orangutan when I see one and neither should you.

          • Bob Crouch
            December 18, 2015 at 1:00 pm

            OK, so you got this one guy? And that proves that his entire profession is bad?

            That’s like saying the entire military is bad because of “captain” Miscavige and “commodore” Hubbard. Well, except that those two were/are of course impostors and an insult to anybody who ever served this country.

          • Waterhorse
            December 22, 2015 at 11:36 am

            Brock Chisolm was instrumental in laying down fundamental policy in the field of mental health in the 20th century. He formulated – or at least forwarded a very explicit agenda for influencing major world governments, education and other fields. A fascist bonehead was allowed into our kitchens to salt the food. SHAME on him! And shame on us for letting it happen! Dunce caps are severely in order here.

          • Bob Crouch
            December 22, 2015 at 11:51 am

            Your cult mentality is getting in your way again. Medical organizations don’t work like scientology where one guy–let’s say a school dropout like Hubbard or Miscavige–makes all the policies and everybody else has to go along…

            But all of your conspiracy ideas notwithstanding, ALL of your “argument” is based on a single little quote that you took out of context. You got NOTHING but the paranoid and falsified garbage the cult feeds you.

            Wise up: Everybody is laughing about you and your cult! No need to make that any worse, as you insist on doing!

          • Bob Crouch
            December 22, 2015 at 1:05 pm

            Colorful stuff although in no way supported by facts. Looks like they let a “bonehead” in on this discussion. You will obviously believe EVERYTHING the cult asks you to. But of course,feeding false information to its constituency and ordering them to believe it, that’s one of the major things that makes it a cult in the first place…

          • Bob Crouch
            December 22, 2015 at 8:40 pm

            Yet again, your cult mindset is getting in your way. While scientology is based on the ludicrous claims of one con man who can never be wrong, nothing else in the real world works that way. The world’s mental health policies are NOT run by a single person, let alone Chisholm.

            Given the simplicity and ignorance of your argument, I concur: “A Dunce cap is severely in order here.”

          • Waterhorse
            December 23, 2015 at 10:53 am

            Common sense eludes you. “Brock Chisolm was instrumental in laying down fundamental policy…” doesn’t mean he’s the only one involved. As the head of the WFMH he had a lot of influence and did influence and originate policies and guidelines for action as any CEO of any group would. A no brainer for anyone with a pair of eyes and just a modicum of common sense.

          • Bob Crouch
            December 23, 2015 at 12:17 pm

            “Common sense eludes you.” I like to see you claiming that.

            You cut and paste that same one every three or four replies. It demonstrates how little you have to offer by way of actual argument. Even in your attempts at disqualifying others by mere say-so, you lack even minimal originality.

            But, please don’t take this personally. This is actually TYPICAL for scientology cult shills. Just ask elle, fettle, keeponlearning (how ironic a moniker). They’ll tell you the same thing about their own posts: Claim–rinse–repeat.

          • Waterhorse
            December 24, 2015 at 6:52 am

            Common sense eludes you! LOL!

          • Bob Crouch
            December 24, 2015 at 9:23 am

            LOL? Little things amuse little minds!

          • Bob Crouch
            December 18, 2015 at 2:14 pm

            A medical degree doesn’t mean much? Then why did dropout Hubbard pretend he had one? It’s easy to discount accomplishments others have achieved and you have not.

          • Bob Crouch
            December 17, 2015 at 3:46 pm

            You are obviously obfuscating the whole disconnection issue! Disconnection has NOTHING to do with excommunication. Almost any organization has a mechanism by which they may exclude members for various reasons. You flagrantly violate an organization’s standards–they kick you out. Even your employer will do so if you don’t do your job or steal the petty cash.

            However, if someone is excommunicated, for example from the RCC, NO ONE will make you not talk to your spouse (let alone pressure you to divorce them), your children or your parents as a CONDITION of not getting excommunicated yourself.

            Nor is the problem if a member of a group–any group–decides that they don’t want anything to do with individuals who deride their beliefs, politics or whatever else may be dear to them.

            The problem is when an organization FORCES people to disconnect from their own family as a prerequisite for staying in a group! When they have to choose between the group and their marriage. Or when they have to choose whether to associate with one of their children who’s in the group or another who’s out. The problem is that disconnection is FORCED on people. And disconnection is being policed; the “church” will go to lengths to interrogate people to make sure that they abide by the disconnection policy–even if it involves their own flesh and blood. That is CULT behavior! Healthy groups do NO SUCH THING!

          • Waterhorse
            December 18, 2015 at 10:51 am

            Unfortunately there aren’t a lot of “helathy” groups around on this planet. Most are quite the reverse for reasons outlined in Scientology. The larger the group gets the more likely it is get really sick and/or attacked by outside influences. I give you the RCC as an example in history and the extreme measures they took to fix this problem. Any government large or small could be used as an example of this as well. The problems of groups have never been successfully dealt with and the way it’s headed – nothing seems to have changed. In fact it’s moving fast towards a global pol;ice state which is the last thing on earth people need. Maybe disconnection is just the lesser of many evils in certain cases.

          • Bob Crouch
            December 18, 2015 at 12:58 pm

            A lot of times, abused people lose their sense of “healthy.” As a person in a cult, I can understand that you are having trouble with that. But let me assure you: The mind control, manipulation and suppression that happens in the “church” of scientology is NOT normal. You may find it (probably in a less extreme form than “c”os) in the likes of Westborough Baptist Church. But your typical church or group does NOT operate like this. NOT EVEN CLOSE!

            Once again, you are making no sense at all: We’re moving toward a police state. And disconnection is the lesser evil? How is living in a cult modeled after a police state the answer to anything?

          • Bob Crouch
            December 18, 2015 at 5:01 pm

            It’s funny that you should use this quote! First off, the guy who said this, Brock Chisholm, was NOT even a psychiatrist. Second, you took his words out of context.

            But, leaving all of this aside, your selective quote excerpt makes it sound as if it’s the purpose of psychiatry to do away with ethics and abandon the idea of ethical imperatives. So one non-psychiatrist’s view, taken out of context no less, is sufficient to discredit an entire branch of the medical profession? What a simplistic world you live in!

            But it’s interesting to note that Hubbard did EXACTLY what this guy allegedly advocated. Hubbard re-defined “ethics” to suit HIS purposes. Being “source,” he took himself the liberty to be the foundation of “ethics” in the form of his 8 Dynamics (not to mention his silly little “Way to Happiness” tract). And now, it’s scientology’s purpose to get Hubbard’s arbitrary ethics in on this planet!

            By Hubbard’s reckoning, scientologists are the “most ethical people on the planet,” a concept so laughable that it does not even deserve any serious consideration. But Hubbard’s own ethics certainly did not present a particular honest man, a man who honored his commitment to his wife (or 3 of them, for that matter), his children, people who had loaned him money, etc. Maybe in his own mind he could justify that. To the rest of the world, he was a classical case of a sociopathic crook.

            So Hubbard was in no way prepared to get on an ethical high horse, and neither is the organization itself. Yet, the “psychs” are out there trying to undermine all that is good and noble? Get serious!

          • Waterhorse
            December 22, 2015 at 11:13 am

            Brock Chisolm was the Head of the World Federation for Mental Health. Regardless of his diplomas, he was the top psych in the world making policies for Mental Health and influencing government policy. A complete fascist goon on steroids and the quotes are totally valid. They actually understate his inanity .

          • Bob Crouch
            December 22, 2015 at 11:28 am

            It’s funny you should bring up “inanity.” That’s the word that immediately popped in my head when I read your reply.

            Even with a quote that you took out of context and most likely are intellectually ill-equipped to understand in the first place, let’s assume Chisholm was right. That would mean that Hubbard was a “psych.” As I pointed out in my post, Hubbard did EXACTLY what Chisholm was talking about. He re-defined ethics, in a way where:
            * lying may be OK
            * stealing can be OK
            *violence and illegal attacks on others may be called for
            * imprisoning others may be necessary

            * breaking up families and ordering divorces may be required

            Hubbard created a system of ethics where right was wrong and wrong was right–as long as HE said so and it “kept scientology working.” According to the quote you posted and the logic you are applying, we can safely conclude:

            HUBBARD WAS A PSYCH!

          • Waterhorse
            December 23, 2015 at 10:26 am

            You have symptoms of disassociation. Perhaps you should restrain from the licking of toads and you’ll see things from a slightly clearer perspective. Anyone publicly stating the value of eradication of the difference between right and wrong must be completely delusional. OR maybe simply has an agenda – OR perhaps BOTH.

          • Bob Crouch
            December 23, 2015 at 12:38 pm

            “You have symptoms of disassociation.” Careful with the big words, little man, you’ll hurt yourself. And in fact, you have! Are you sure that a person who doesn’t know the difference between disassociation and dissociation is mentally prepared to lecture the rest of the world on psychiatry? It’s sort of like claiming to be an expert outdoorsman, and yet not knowing the difference between a beer and a bear.

            You remind me of Tom Cruise on Matt Lauer, delivering his anti-psychiatry rant. Big on cult-inspired passion, yet oh so short on facts. Even as someone who classifies scientology as an odious cult, I felt sorry for Tom that day. Thinking himself to be such a “big being,” he revealed himself as such a dimwitted little blowhard.

          • Bob Crouch
            December 23, 2015 at 12:38 pm

            But back to “ethics:” I asked you this before, and you failed to offer an explanation (sorry, rants don’t count): If you are so concerned about ethical absolutes (as well you should be), why did Hubbard DO the exact thing that you are accusing Chisholm of WANTING to do, namely re-define right and wrong according to his personal whims and convenience?

          • Bob Crouch
            December 22, 2015 at 6:18 pm

            Did you know that Chisholm, unlike the fake “commodore” was a much decorated war hero? Unlike Hubbard, he didn’t have to lie about it. He saw combat and distinguished himself.

            Unlike cult leader Miscavige, he EARNED the rank of “captain.” Unlike both of them, he actually had academic credibility and medical experience.

            Are you attacking him just to defend those two know-nothing’s?

          • Waterhorse
            December 23, 2015 at 10:57 am

            Chisolm must have taken a bullet to the head in combat judging by his subsequent antics. He should have sought help and taken a veteren’s pension instead of carrying on with this inane scheme!
            Common sense eluded him.

          • Bob Crouch
            December 23, 2015 at 12:07 pm

            If common sense really were your thing, you’d realize that making big claims means NOTHING if you cannot provide evidence–even a little. You just go on with the name-calling instead and convince yourself you made a point–well you didn’t!

            Btw, if being a war hero is such a despicable thing that you ought to make fun of it, why did Hubbard lie and pretend that he was one too? The cult repeats that lie to this day. Why would they do that? Want to make fun of Hubbard’s false military resume too?

          • Bob Crouch
            December 23, 2015 at 2:31 pm

            So you would actually stoop THIS low? Disparaging a veteran for his service to his country? Good thing he’s Caucasian and not gay. Who knows where else your bigotry would take you next.

            Btw, do you even know what “antics” you’re referring to?

          • December 24, 2015 at 5:27 pm

            “Chisholm developed his strong Marxist view that children should be raised in an “as intellectually free environment” as possible, independent of the prejudices and biases (political, moral and religious) of their parents.”

            “While Chisholm was Director General of the WHO from 1948 to 1953, he was quoted as saying, “To achieve world government, it is necessary to remove from the minds of men their individualism, loyalty to family traditions, national patriotism, and religious dogmas.”

            I think Waterhorse stumbled on the truth–the guy took a bullet to the head.

          • Bob Crouch
            December 24, 2015 at 6:15 pm

            Speaking of bullet to the head: He also somehow concluded that he could use Chisholm to justify his bigoted and ignorant hatred of an entire branch of the medical profession.

            What’s next? Einstein was an atheist; therefore, let’s throw away physics?

            Yet this same guy shows incredible credulity when it comes to a dilletant like Hubbard making claims to science regardless of how widely debunked the latter is.

          • Bob Crouch
            December 24, 2015 at 8:02 pm

            “Hubbard developed his strong scientologist view that children should be raised in an “as intellectually controlling environment” as possible, entirely dependent on the prejudices and biases (political, moral and religious) of their cult fuehrer.”

            Or ideally, working 100 hour weeks to profit Hubbard personally, for almost no money behind a guarded barbed wire fence. For good masure, under a billion year contract, as well as multiple non-disclosure agreements and the threat of freeloaders’ debt.

          • Bob Crouch
            December 15, 2015 at 12:11 pm

            Google Lisa McPherson, Cathriona White and Narconon deaths. All victims of Hubbard’s quack methods. And there are plenty of others.

          • December 17, 2015 at 3:54 pm

            Psychs failed utterly to “cure” alcoholism. Really get that. Psychs failed and even made the addicts worse. But AA, a spiritual program with morals and ethics to follow can rehabilitate the alcoholic. Psychs are not only failures, they are harmful.

          • Bob Crouch
            December 17, 2015 at 4:41 pm

            “Psychs” NEVER made the claim that they had “cured” alcoholism. Hubbard, however, DID make that claim–as usual, with ZERO evidence! The poor deluded fool figured he’s get thee Nobel prize for his great discoveries too. Narconon, the scientology front, claims a 75-78% recovery rate–a claim they KNOW is false!

            AA is a program based on “rigorous honesty.” Scientology has a Training Routine to teach people how to lie!

            AA makes its program available for free to all comers. It refuses monetary donations over $200. Scientology will suck all the money it can out of its “parishioners.” You can NOT avail yourself of any of its services unless you pay a significant amount upfront–no refunds. And if you don’t have $30k, Narconon will turn you away as well.

            AA holds to a generally accepted system of “ethics and morals.” Scientology re-defines the meaning of “ethics” for the benefit of its organization.

            AA is a free, loose and voluntary association. It’s a grassroots movement where the organization answers to the members. Scientology is a hierarchical top-down organization. What’s more, it has built into it the control mechanisms of a cult.

            The ideology of AA (its “dogma,” if you will) is spelled out in its entirety upfront. Prospective members can consult a web site before they even go a meeting (no Xenu surprises!). Scientology reveals its “dogma” in bits and pieces–as long as you pay up.

            There is no organizationally mandated disconnection in AA. If you criticize or leave AA, you do not have to fear any repercussions. In fact, you’re free to return if you have a change of heart (without having to buy your way back in with costly amends projects that you may be unable to afford or unwilling to perform). Not so in scientology!

            AA allows any interested party to use its discoveries and methods in books, other organizations and treatment centers. In scientology, that’s called “squirreling.” It’s suppressed by legal means and many others of the extra-legal and even illegal variety.

            I could go on. But one thing is abundantly clear: The two could not be more different from each other!

          • Avid Miskaridge
            December 18, 2015 at 12:49 am

            Oh here we go elle, talking about something you have very little knowledge about. I wish I knew what you did for a living aside from spew uneducated rhetoric. How far up the bridge are you?

          • Bob Crouch
            December 14, 2015 at 5:04 pm

            See, but we’re a respectable cult. We even dig the 10 Commandments.

            No you don’t! First of all, “Ron” didn’t. He had to be “source” of all ethics. Second, if it’s in the perceived interest of the cult, all considerations for the Ten fly out the window. Examples for that abound.

          • Waterhorse
            December 15, 2015 at 11:19 am

            Yes. AA does work as I’ve known people that have used it and found it very helpful. It gets people together with other people that want to improve so that really helps as well to be in a group that has a common goal of keeping sober etc.
            Compare that to things like methadone drug programs and those psych based methadone programs look like some kind of sick joke. Which they are.

          • Bob Crouch
            December 15, 2015 at 12:08 pm

            You sound like a bigoted fool. A lot more people have died from scientoloy front scheme Narconon than in methadone programs. You know nothing about them; you just regurgitate what other ignoramuses like Cruise or Miscavige feed you.

          • December 15, 2015 at 2:24 pm

            The 12 Steps of AA do it. Before that is “rigorous honesty.” This statement is made (all in chapter 5, I believe it is): We thought we could find an easier softer way, but we could not. Half measures availed us nothing. If you want what we have and are willing to go to any lengths to get it, these are the steps we took. Very powerful, very simple, but not easy.

          • Bob Crouch
            December 15, 2015 at 3:27 pm

            You can do it without bankrupting yourself and getting into a cult or enduring life-threatening Narconon quackery for $30k.

          • December 15, 2015 at 4:18 pm

            So a well known talk show host said he was addicted deeply to cocaine (and other stuff) and went into rehab that cost $20,000 30 years ago. You really are living in a totally hallucinated universe.

          • Avid Miskaridge
            December 15, 2015 at 4:29 pm

            You don’t seem to be the least bit qualified to understand or talk about chemical addiction in soceity. The mere fact that you believe Narcon offers a sound rehabilitation program disqualifies your opinion on anything else relating to addiction. I hope that you are not employed in any caring profession or anywhere near other vulnerable people.

          • Bob Crouch
            December 15, 2015 at 5:30 pm

            I’m sure there are celebrity rehabs for $100k. At least, they don’t provide Hubbard’s quackery, a bunch of counselors who have fly-by-night certificates, prostitution for drugs and intro scientology training. In fact, you may even get out alive!

          • Bob Crouch
            December 15, 2015 at 5:33 pm

            The twelve steps have rigorous honesty, scientology has Training Routine–Lying. The steps are free, scientoloy costs a fortune. Different strokes for different folks.

          • Waterhorse
            December 8, 2015 at 11:20 am

            Scientology is non-denominational. All other religions are welcome in it’s ranks, including the Jedis.

          • Bob Crouch
            December 8, 2015 at 1:46 pm

            Untrue. Unless you worship Hubbard and give up all “other gods,” you are NOT practicing scientology. Of course, they’ll still take your money anyway.

          • sundaygirl
            December 8, 2015 at 3:37 pm

            What happens after a person pays his or her way to OT8, where he or she learns that Jesus is an implant and was also a pedophile (LRH’s words, not mine)?

          • Waterhorse
            December 8, 2015 at 4:06 pm

            Many people these days have money or some material object as their God anyway so I think it’s quite safe ground. If you haven’t done the OT levels yourself how come you act like such an expert? You are obviously not an expert on these levels and would not do them regardless of cause.

          • sundaygirl
            December 8, 2015 at 4:29 pm

            What is distressing is that you don’t see that your source and your current leader had/have money (and real estate) as their God. (You do know that people can be Catholic without spending hundreds of thousands of dollars for the privilege, right?)

            Whether I’ve done the OT levels or not is immaterial. I have actually used the technology – maybe a bad choice of words – at my disposal to study your organization and its “scripture”. I don’t have to be a Catholic to know what the Bible is all about and I don’t have to be a Scientologist to know what LRH wrote.

          • Waterhorse
            December 8, 2015 at 4:40 pm

            Whether you have done the OT levels is ENTIRELY the point. It makes a huge difference in understanding the whole concept. You cant understand them without doing them – that is what is unique about them and why they are limited distribution – or were.

          • Bob Crouch
            December 8, 2015 at 6:03 pm

            So it requires indoctrination and a controlling cult to think freely and objectively?

          • sundaygirl
            December 8, 2015 at 6:06 pm

            You need someone to tell you what LRH meant when he wrote that Jesus was an implanted pedophile? You need to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars to figure those words out? I’ve read what your source wrote. Although it is sci-fi claptrap, it’s really not that difficult to understand.

          • Waterhorse
            December 9, 2015 at 10:59 am

            Space flight and submarines were sci fi claptrap too but heralded a new age of innovation and progress as well as dangers.
            You’d be surprised how much Science fiction predicts the future. Ask Isaac Asimov. I wonder why Star Wars is so damned popular? Actually I don’t wonder but some people might.

          • Bob Crouch
            December 9, 2015 at 11:03 am

            Star Wars is indeed popular–even in the area of novelty spirituality. Did you know that there are now more Jedis than scientologists?

          • Waterhorse
            December 10, 2015 at 12:20 pm

            One small organized group of Jedi Knights could take out psychiatry in one fell swoop! May the force be with them!

          • Bob Crouch
            December 10, 2015 at 1:26 pm

            And why would you want to do that? Surely, Hubard’s quackery wouldn’t be prepared to take psychiatry’s place

          • Bob Crouch
            December 9, 2015 at 11:40 am

            Space flight and submarines have actually happened. But 65 years have passed, and still no “clears?” Not even one?

          • Waterhorse
            December 10, 2015 at 12:05 pm

            Misinformed and biased to the hilt.

          • Bob Crouch
            December 10, 2015 at 1:35 pm

            And you molest rabbits.

            See how easy it is to make a claim, but you offer NOTHING to back it up.

          • IASREG
            December 14, 2015 at 12:23 pm

            Sure you can. Tilting at Body Thetans is obviously ridiculous foolishness. It is far better to know what the OT levels are about way before hand so that you won’t fall for that nonsense.

          • Bob Crouch
            December 7, 2015 at 6:55 pm

            Early adopters? After 65 years? And even those paltry numbers are dwindling. As is Hubbard’s personal credibility along with his debunked “science” claims.

          • IASREG
            December 14, 2015 at 12:16 pm

            Tilting at imaginary Body Thetans is an idea and innovation which makes the iPhone look like a “gob-stopper”? What a belly laugher! Hubbard junk psuedoscience isn’t even new, it is a tired and thoroughly debunked pile of crackpot nonsense. Even an original iPhone is far more valuable than the entirety of Hubbard’s dreck.

          • Waterhorse
            December 15, 2015 at 11:26 am

            I phones are valuable for sure. The ability to communicate is great. It’s just that higher states of being are much MORE valuable to us now that we have all this technology. Enough technology is enough. Lets get to a higher state before we wreck the planet and there’s no one left to text. Common sense is a lost art I fear in this day of technological wonders.

          • Bob Crouch
            December 15, 2015 at 12:04 pm

            There is no evidence that scientoloy has ever advanced anybody to that higher state you’re fantasizing about. Plenty of evidence to the contrary that this cult has never done anything, except for those at the top of the pyramid scheme.

          • Bob Crouch
            December 7, 2015 at 7:13 pm

            65 years have done nothing but debunked scientology and unmasked its “founder” as a garden-variety scammer.

          • Waterhorse
            December 8, 2015 at 10:59 am

            Small potatoes. Socrates was given poison. Jesus was crucified. Opposition is a sign of a new idea breaking new ground and a few heads! Rock on.

          • Bob Crouch
            December 8, 2015 at 3:42 pm

            You didn’t! Hubbard compared to Socrates and Jesus? Please!

            Regardless, I have news for you: “Breaking heads” in the name of religion may be considered standard procedure for ISIS. In our society? Not so much! Which may help you understand why most of us are neutral toward cults in general; yet scientology has become so reviled that they use deceptive advertisement without revealing their name to lure people in. What quality brand would do such a thing? Can you imagine IBM, Mercedes or Coke selling their products with covered-up logos?

          • Waterhorse
            December 8, 2015 at 4:01 pm

            Wild generalizations and over-reaction don’t work but I am not surprised that you resort to them to look like an expert

          • Bob Crouch
            December 8, 2015 at 6:30 pm

            You seem to think that you made a valid comparison (generalization). And if you think I “over-reacted” to your justification for “breaking heads” because somehow it’s OK for your cult to do so, I’ll have no trouble living with that.

          • December 12, 2015 at 1:29 pm

            You are such a liar. What is that religion you belong to again?

          • Bob Crouch
            December 12, 2015 at 2:56 pm

            What was I lying about again? The justification for “breaking heads?” Read the thread, you’ll see.

            The absurdity of comparing Hubbard to Jesus and Socrates? Speaks for itself. Nobody in their right mind would risk embarrassing themselves with such a comparison!

            Scientology trying to draw people into its courses without revealing its badly damaged name brand? Scan through Craigslist! You’ll see HUNDREDS of examples.

            So where were those “lies” again?

          • Bob Crouch
            December 5, 2015 at 1:08 pm

            Obvious to all, dianetics/scientology has been trying to scam people for 65 years. Junk or “knock-off” junk. It’s all the same!

          • Captain MustSavage
            December 6, 2015 at 12:45 pm

            elle, if Marty was providing emeter auditing (the same thing that Scientology is) and what Marty was doing was a “scam”, logically that makes what Scientology is doing a scam.

          • Waterhorse
            December 7, 2015 at 10:23 am

            Marty is a scam artist – that’s why he blew Scientology and started his own “brand” of it with his own silly website – which got him absolutely nowhere!

          • Captain MustSavage
            December 7, 2015 at 2:23 pm

            What exactly is Marty doing that’s a scam? I understand that in the past at least, not sure what he’s doing now because i don’t read his blog, that Marty audited independent scientologists using an e meter. Scientology audits using an e meter. Therefore if Marty using an emeter to audit is scamming, then scientology is also perpetrating a scam. You can’t have it both ways.

          • Waterhorse
            December 7, 2015 at 5:18 pm

            An emeter is a tool like a stethoscope or similar device to help find things. It depends for its effectiveness of the person using it. If you give a stethoscope to a lawyer he would not be able to detect any illness as he’s not versed in how it is used.
            A trained auditor using an emeter is very effective if he applies the correct methods. Marty knows this but seems incapable of seeing the broader picture and has lost his way utterly – therefore no one with any sense would allow him to audit them.

          • Captain MustSavage
            December 7, 2015 at 6:02 pm

            What sort of illness can the emeter detect?

          • Waterhorse
            December 8, 2015 at 10:21 am

            Don’t be silly. It doesn’t detect illness. I was using the stethoscope as an illustration of how a piece of equipment is useless without a trained operator. Put the bong down and forge ahead.

          • Bob Crouch
            December 8, 2015 at 2:34 pm

            Of course, ANY equipment is “useless without a trained operator.” But useless or non-functioning “equipment” is useless in any event–regardless of the operator. A stethoscope is a sound piece of medical equipment. An emeter, despite its $5000 price tag for a few bucks of relatively simple electronics, is of NO demonstrable scientific value whatsoever. Unless you believe, like Hubbard, that thoughts have “mass,” which is beyond even junk science.

            Ever wonder why the “church” agreed to the FDA stipulation to put a sticker on the emeter that explains that the emeter does–nothing!

          • Waterhorse
            December 8, 2015 at 4:31 pm

            Your thoughts have so much mass in them I’m surprised you can get off the couch!
            Also – You can buy an e meter used for much less than the new price. Same with a stethoscope if you’re interested.

          • Bob Crouch
            December 8, 2015 at 6:13 pm

            And why again is the cult gouging people for their emeters? Or all the various “Ron” emissions that people are desperate to give away for pennies on the Dollar?

          • December 12, 2015 at 1:41 pm

            So haven’t the independents invented an emeter for themselves if it’s so simple. They have to buy other peoples’ emeters and they cannot maintain them. Sorry, your arguments are bogus.

          • Bob Crouch
            December 12, 2015 at 2:46 pm

            My arguments had nothing whatsoever to do with the “independents.” But it is ironic that you would take a group so hated by the money-grubbing cult for competing with them to try to make your “argument.”

          • Bob Crouch
            December 7, 2015 at 7:07 pm

            A stethoscope is a scientific tool. An emeter is based on the idea that thoughts have “mass.” Obviously, that’s junk “science.” Unlike a stethoscope, an emeter is under FDA mandate to carry a disclaimer sticker that it does–nothing.

          • Waterhorse
            December 8, 2015 at 10:24 am

            And I guess that Prozac cures people of depression right? The FDA approved it so it must be good for people right? Just like Bovine Growth Hormone was approved by the FDA for milk in the US. Why was it banned in other countries? It sucks. Don’t be a chump.

          • Bob Crouch
            December 8, 2015 at 2:27 pm

            Medicine (incl. psychiatry) is an evolving science. It does not claim to have all the answers. Science NEVER does.

            Scientology claims to have ALL the answers now. It claims that “source,” a dilettante who could not even make it through his freshman year without getting washed out, has ALL the right answers NOW. It calims itself to be “science” and yet to this day has never stood up to any scientific criteria or method. And it never will!

            So a failed pulp sci-fi writer who didn’t want to work for a penny a word any longer and thus invented a “religion” has ALL the DEFINITIVE answers. At least you have one absolutely correct suggestion–one more than he does: “Don’t be a chump.”

          • Waterhorse
            December 8, 2015 at 4:33 pm

            If you drink too much milk you may grow breasts. No joke! Caitlin Jenner look out!

          • Bob Crouch
            December 8, 2015 at 6:10 pm

            Is that how Hubbard came by his man boobs? Well, at least this saved you from having to address anything of substance. Same old…

          • Waterhorse
            December 9, 2015 at 10:50 am

            It’s not a joke. BGH and other hormones are doing this thanks to the wonderful watchdog for hire – the FDA (Freaking Dull and Amorphous)

          • Bob Crouch
            December 9, 2015 at 11:00 am

            Freaking what? Oh, you are so original! What are you hating on the FDA for? They were just trying to protect the public from scammers selling “emeters,” a few dollars worth of electronics, for $5000 and more. Particularly since that device does nothing of particular use. If the FDA really had teeth, these scammers would be in prison, where they belong!

          • Waterhorse
            December 10, 2015 at 12:22 pm

            Drink your BGH milk and eat your GMO cornflakes. You’ll grow fuzzy hair in all kinds of interesing places.

          • Bob Crouch
            December 10, 2015 at 1:25 pm

            Cornflakes aside, as I was pointing out: What are you hating on the FDA for? They were just trying to protect the public from scammers selling “emeters,” a few dollars worth of electronics, for $5000 and more. Particularly since that device does nothing of particular use. If the FDA really had teeth, these scammers would be in prison, where they belong!

            How about that?

          • Waterhorse
            December 11, 2015 at 10:24 am

            Just look at the history of the FDA. It’s an organization for hire. It would be fine just doing it’s job but it doesn’t. Again – it needs to reform or face extinction – or at best replacement with something that does protect the public as stated. All the BGH in the milk is affecting your judgement I fear.

          • Bob Crouch
            December 11, 2015 at 10:52 am

            “Just look at the history of the FDA. It’s an organization for hire. It would be fine just doing it’s job but it doesn’t.”

            I could say the same about scientology and its failed “science” claims. And it would be exactly what you provided: a generality that no one should take seriously. In fact, this sounds a lot like Tom Cruise’s embarrassing rant on Matt Lauer’s show about “I know the history of psychiatry; you don’t.”

            Please provide specific evidence for your claims about the “history of the FDA.”

          • Waterhorse
            December 12, 2015 at 10:57 am

            Do your own research. It’s easy to find out about the FDA.

          • Bob Crouch
            December 12, 2015 at 11:30 am

            So YOU get to make the sweeping tin-foil hat conspiracy claims! And then it’s MY job to prove YOUR “points?” Even the REALLY unsustainable ones?

            I have a better idea: YOU need to put up or shut up. In my experience, cult shills lack the class to do either…

          • Waterhorse
            December 14, 2015 at 11:14 am

            It’s your job to determine the truth for yourself. Be your own bitch and work it out for yourself.

          • Bob Crouch
            December 14, 2015 at 2:05 pm

            Lame! You make false claims, and then want me to prove them for you? Remember you’re the fool who fell for the most odious cult on the block. You’re the gullible one, not me. So put up or shut up.

          • December 12, 2015 at 1:42 pm

            Even the psychs are admitting they aren’t “medicine” and that they are messing up.

          • Bob Crouch
            December 12, 2015 at 2:21 pm

            As usual, you are making blanket statements without ANY evidence whatsoever. So psychiatrists submit to the rigors of medical training, and then are admitting they are NOT part of the field of medicine? And they claim they are “messing up,” to boot? Where did you get that information?

            As I said before, there is NO such thing as “perfect science.” Science is by its very nature a thing in progress. A few months ago, a friend of mine was completely healed of Hepatitis C by using a drug–I can only imagine your shock. A couple of years ago, this would have been impossible–the best a treatment could offer was “remission,” and even that often did not last. A couple of decades ago, it would have been impossible to even diagnose this disease.

            Psych drugs are even more difficult. They don’t work the same way for everybody. For a few people, they don’t work at all. Nevertheless, they have also given countless people their lives back. There’s a good chance that Cathriona White and Lisa McPherson would be alive today, had they received proper treatment instead of fatal quackery.

            So while scientists struggle to heal or at least ameliorate serious physical and mental diseases, your cult claims to have all the answers already. Why? Because Hubbard picked up a popular text on Freud and wrote dianetics? With no research evidence. And with no evidence that it even works. In fact, his failures were quite spectacular. When he actually presented a “clear,” he was laughed out of the auditorium. He never presented another “clear.” Ever wonder why?

            So you claim that “psychs” know nothing, are evil, and “mess up.” But a pulp fiction writer with no knowledge or experience in the applicable disciplines–who had DEMONSTRATED that he was incapable of conducting meaningful research–had all the answers? Despite complete lack of evidence, he got ALL of it right decades ago? While everyone else is still in the dark? So all we have to do is take his word for it–the word of a guy who was demonstrably a compulsive liar, fraud and thief!

            It’s ironic that a guy like that would offer us “to buy a bridge.” Sounds like a great deal–NOT!

          • December 12, 2015 at 1:22 pm

            False Dichotomy. You lose.

          • Captain MustSavage
            December 12, 2015 at 2:10 pm

            Why do you support an organisation that has a policy directing you to harm other human beings? Is that really what you joined up for? Why do you think it’s okay to harm other people?

          • Bob Crouch
            December 12, 2015 at 3:02 pm

            Hubbard claimed–and the “church” still does in its ridiculous TV commercials–a “scientific” character to his “religious” scam. If that were so, a highly trained auditor like Mr. Rathbun using “official” editions of the emeter should be able to bring about the same results as someone in a “church” building.

            So if one is “scamming” and the other one isn’t, what gives? Are they both scamming? Is neither? Is the “scientific” label a lie? Or is Mr. Rathbun wrong when–with the benefit of enough soul searching–he has decided that “auditing” is a scam to begin with and has abandoned all practice of scientology?

          • Bob Crouch
            December 7, 2015 at 7:11 pm

            Marty has recognized Hubbard as the “scam artist” and renounced scientology. His “own brand” is a fiction; it exists only on “church” hate videos.

          • Captain MustSavage
            December 12, 2015 at 2:14 pm

            Scientology spent an awful lot of money on someone pretty trivial then. Church of Scientology International admitted to funding extensive harassment of the Rathbuns in court. Why did they spend so much money on someone so trivial? Is this really how Scientology spends its tax exempt dollars? Why should we keep subsidising an organisation who considers the squirrel busters money well spent?

          • December 12, 2015 at 1:19 pm

            if if if. If your Aunt was a man, she would be your uncle. Marty never did do emeter auditing like the Church. He did his own thing and no one wanted it.

          • Captain MustSavage
            December 12, 2015 at 2:03 pm

            So your argument is that if Marty provides emeter auditing it’s a scam, but if Scientology provides emeter auditing that’s not a scam, is that correct? Marty was Tom Cruises auditor which means he was one of the best Scientology had meaning that he knew what he was doing. Any auditing he did outside would have been the exact same thing he did while in Scientology. Can you see the logic? If Marty is providing the exact same thing scientology does then they are either BOTH perpetrating a scam or neither is. You can’t have it both ways.

            What evidence do you have that Marty never did emeter auditing like Scientology? Your claims are useless without evidence and the only people privy to any information about Marty post his defection from scientology are lackeys of the Office of Special Affairs. Are you outing yourself as an evil agent of OSA?

            As for your final comment, if no one wanted what Marty was offering why did the Church of Scientology International fund half a dozen people to harass him and his wife by laying siege to his home for six months? CSI admitted to this in court in the Rathbun case. For those who are interested, Google ‘squirrel busters’. It’s hilarious and frightening. Scientology claimed this harassment was their religious right. People can also find video of your senior executives harassing Marty at an airport on YouTube. Very sobering viewing considering these people represent your organisation, a so called church.

          • Bob Crouch
            December 12, 2015 at 3:10 pm

            “Marty never did do emeter auditing like the Church.” This is a totally unverifiable claim. You weren’t there. You don’t know. If these processes are “objective” and “scientific” as claimed, there is no reason to believe that a highly trained auditor should not be able to do this. Of course, that does not mean that these processes are of any value whatsoever to begin with.

            “No one wanted it?” Again, you weren’t there. You’re making this up. However, given the extortionate rates charged for auditing, the significant number of independents, and the respect Mr. Rathbun enjoys among independents, there is no reason that he could not have made a tremendously profitable practice out of it. As the saying goes, “there’s one sucker born every minute.” So if Hubbard was able to exploit that, others could too. It’s to their credit if they choose not to!

          • Ben Franklin
            December 7, 2015 at 8:06 pm

            Hubbard scammed all Scientologists. As long as you continue receiving auditing you will never understand because you are stuck in a state of hypnotic trance. You are hypnotized, you never woke up no matter how normal you think you are, you are still in hypnosis that is why are not able to realize that you have been duped and taken for a ride. People who wake up from Hubbard’s hypnosis leave Scientology all together. There is nothing special in Scientology.

          • Bob Crouch
            December 4, 2015 at 9:57 pm

            “Everyone” loved it? His studio boss invited him to take his production company elsewhere. The most commonly used term about Cruise in the media at the time became “overexposed.” “Weirdo” became a common staple, and the term “cult” became a mainstay. So “everyone?”‘Not so much!

            The Lauer episode was worse. First off, it demonstrated that Cruise had no idea what he was talking about, but he was also appallingly arrogant about it. Not to mention insensitive and patronizing in an extremely sexist manner.

            These two meltdowns, while dutifully applauded within the cult, are not remembered as “great moments in dissemination–” except for among the entirely deluded.

            But don’t just take my word for it. It’s quite obvious that Cruise took a 180 degree turn right after these incidents. While there is no doubt that he remains any bit as ill-informed and every bit the same arrogant blow hard, he has chosen to keep this charming side of himself away from the public. So much so that he tried to fight the dissemination of his “maniacal laughter” clip. Albeit to yet another backlash. And scientology questions are now strictly verboten as he makes his media rounds.

            These policies make it quite clear that neither Tom nor his scilon sister–PR agent care to go down that road again.

          • daytoncapri
            December 4, 2015 at 10:08 pm

            elle…Wrathbun? I don’t think you have the spelling quite right. You are referring to the guy who writes the “Moving on up a little higher” blog, am I correct?

          • madame duran
            December 5, 2015 at 12:29 am

            Everyone loved his couch jumping.

            Just like how everyone enjoyed all three of Tom Cruise’s divorces (enjoyed because each wife managed to escape the crazy ALIVE).

          • madame duran
            December 5, 2015 at 12:40 am

            You do realize that Monique Rathbun–wife of Marty Rathbun–was NEVER a Scientologist but was nevertheless subjected to cult harassment and surveillance, right? She initiated a lawsuit where she’s suing the church for their crimes against her and wants to depose David Miscavige as he was the overseer of the project. May 2016 bring about Scientology being raked over the hot, burning coals in this court case (and in Laura DeCrescenzo’s lawsuit too!). I hope you have your popcorn ready, elle.

        • daytoncapri
          December 4, 2015 at 9:57 pm

          Oh elle, boycotting someone or something can be a personal decision as a matter of principle. For example, tell us about your views about seeing the Going Clear movie. You personally will or won’t see it for your own personal reasons, right?

        • vicariousthrill
          December 5, 2015 at 6:10 am

          You poor thing.

        • anoni81b4u
          January 1, 2016 at 2:22 pm

          Oh elle …
          We know the numbers … because we don’t listen to lying cult leaders

      • madame duran
        December 4, 2015 at 11:21 pm

        Paying to look at Tom Cruise movies doesn’t help bring money to Scientology that I can see.

        (bold emphasis mine)

        Well, there’s proof that you’re blind. And dumb.

        He already has enough money to thrive off of for the rest of his life and to donate to anybody and anything he wants to donate to. Let’s imagine that a failure of his career could be achieved through a boycott of his films. Even this scenario would not impact the amount of money brought by him to the Church.

        Cruise, being a noted Scientologist, WILL donate to Scientology organizations. Thank you for acknowledging that Cruise brings in money to the Scientology “church” through his income (despite previously claiming that TC’s movies doesn’t help bring money to Scientology. I can tell that logic isn’t your strength). Question for the movie-going public is this: are you OK with indirectly contributing to that financial support, knowing the harm the Scientology cult inflicts on people all over the world?

        Both Hollywood and Scientology thrive on the bottom line. A downturn in popularity or ticket sales WILL affect a star’s status. Consistent failure means he will earn LESS (or be stuck doing “Mission: Impossible” films until he’s 85 years old). True, Cruise is very wealthy and continues to earn money even if he were to drop out of acting altogether. I’d much rather have the ravenous Scientology cult bilk his existing cash flow than for me to contribute MORE to his stash. Knowing how much of a fool Tom is, he’d likely be grinning and flashing his IAS Freedom Medal of Valor while his “friend” David Miscavige ruins his life and fortune.

        I’ve said this many times before: I have no problem with anyone–including myself–watching Cruise’s films for entertainment. It’s a matter of personal taste (or mental endurance…take your pick). I, however, have resolved to NEVER PAY for the privilege (yes, there are LEGAL ways to do this). I will not buy the DVDs nor download the mp4/.mov files. I will not use my paid Netflix subscription to stream his films. I will not go to see him or other Scientologists in theatres, even if they co-star with actors whom I personally admire. I’m only one person among millions but I’ve decided to put my consumer power into action. If enough people do the same and ALSO WORK TOWARDS HAVING SCIENTOLOGY’S TAX-EXEMPTION REVOKED, we can affect change. That is my hope.

        • December 5, 2015 at 1:00 pm

          That was a meandering and tortured diatribe that led straight to nowhere. Nevertheless, thanks for the indirect agreement that even if you don’t pay a penny for the “privilege” of viewing another Tom Cruise film your decision WILL (lol) have zero impact on how much money he gives to the Church of Scientology. When it comes to decisions about how to spend his own money he is answerable to himself alone. Unlike the little boys that hang around here whining about being done wrong by the Church of Scientology, he’s evidently got the cajones to live up to his own commitments without shrugging them off onto somebody else.

          • madame duran
            December 5, 2015 at 3:32 pm

            Nevertheless, thanks for the indirect agreement that even if you don’t pay a penny for the “privilege” of viewing another Tom Cruise film your decision WILL (lol) have zero impact on how much money he gives to the Church of Scientology.

            The goal is not to get him to stop contributing to Scientology (although if that were to happen, it would be a nice outcome that I’d gladly accept. But being the blind dolt that he is, I really don’t expect him to change anytime soon). The goal is for ME to stop contributing MY DOLLARS to funding his cult and supporting his films. I can’t prevent Cruise from wasting his money on Scientology just as I can’t prevent celebrity addicts from buying illicit drugs. I’m only responsible for MY decisions, not Tom’s. I choose to follow through with my convictions. Apparently, Tom is unwilling to be responsible for his own statements and actions regarding Scientology because he keeps AVOIDING people who wish to hold him accountable. A true coward. A rich coward…but a coward, nevertheless.

          • December 5, 2015 at 7:05 pm

            I support your decision to be answerable only to yourself about how you spend your money. Other than the government and somebody pointing a gun at you, nobody can take it from you by force. And nobody but government officials are accountable to you for how they spend the money held in their name either.

          • madame duran
            December 5, 2015 at 9:42 pm

            Other than the government and somebody pointing a gun at you, nobody can take it [money] from you by force.

            Please remember the above quote the next time you’re being mercilessly, repeatedly and endlessly regged to donate more of your funds to a Scientology cause. Feel NO GUILT when choosing to put the cash towards something useful like a fun vacation, a college degree, a home mortgage or retirement savings…and don’t let the “church” persuade you otherwise. Scientology becomes a gun or a government only if you allow it to be so in your mind.

          • December 6, 2015 at 10:41 am

            Although I don’t share your individual standards about what is useful or not useful spending or what is offensive or appropriate follow-up with contacts, I do agree wholeheartedly with the rest of what you wrote. Especially the last sentence.

            PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE people, grow up, take responsibility for YOUR OWN curiosity and decisions, and stop trying to blame other people!

          • madame duran
            December 6, 2015 at 12:30 pm

            Mentality of a Scientologist:
            Hubbard (Miscavige) was/(is) a genius. The tech is great. Scientology is awesome and can never be wrong. Therefore, anyone who expresses disapproval of Scientology is always at fault and will blame it for his/her own failures.

            This mentality is what I don’t share with you, “in fine kettle”…and for that, I’m thankful.

            Criticizing Scientology for its FRAUDULENCE isn’t “blaming”. Being DELIBERATELY LIED TO or CHEATED is not the former member’s fault. People have the right to take a stand against injustice and publicly state the wrongs that were committed against them. Every former Scientologist should get their money back AS PROMISED IN WRITING when Scientology failed to deliver to their satisfaction.
            Cultists such as yourself like to tell others to “take responsibility for your decisions/actions” but self-responsibility is only one type of accountability. There’s also RESPONSIBILITY TOWARDS OTHERS. You never emphasize that part. You never demand that the Scientology organization be held to the standard of having responsibility towards others (both members and non-members alike). As it is, the cult only seeks to selfishly take care of itself and demands that its members protect it at all costs (KSW) but it doesn’t care for the well-being of anyone/anything else. What a loathsome “church”.

            To the lurkers:
            DO NOT GIVE ONE CENT TO SCIENTOLOGY!! It does not need any more money because it has stockpiled 2-3 billion dollars in assets (documented in revenue reports). It is not a poor organization. If it was truly a “theta” group filled with superpowered “OTs”, it wouldn’t even need physical materials like money to accomplish its spiritual goals. RESOLVE TO STOP PAYING FOR RELIGIOUS KNOWLEDGE (it should be free)!!! Take time to research the money scam then WALK AWAY FROM SCIENTOLOGY FOREVER!!! Life can be fully enjoyed WITHOUT Scientology!!!

            Although I don’t share your individual standards about what is useful or not useful spending or what is offensive or appropriate follow-up with contacts,

            So…you consider spending money on a vacation, a college education, a home and/or retirement savings isn’t “useful”? Do you consider STALKING and DAILY HARASSMENT as an “appropriate” means to follow-up with contacts? I’m curious to know.

          • December 6, 2015 at 1:37 pm

            Yes, there is responsibility towards others. Try it some time and then you’ll have the right to get up on your bully pulpit.

          • madame duran
            December 6, 2015 at 3:30 pm

            I will repeat the glaring truth that you’re trying to avoid:

            Scientology takes no responsibility for its criminal actions and it does not care for anyone or anything beyond itself (“itself” = David Miscavige/COB of RTC/Captain of the Sea Org/present leader of Scientology, husband of the mysteriously absent Shelly Miscavige).

            Oh…am I to take it that you find my message which encourages others to stop contributing money to Scientology as “bullying”? I don’t see how it affects you. You and Tom Cruise can take on the full cost of supporting Scientology because…well, it’s your choice to spend your eternity re-doing courses and getting nowhere (except making Miscavige filthy rich). However, if others don’t feel compelled to give or have other financial interests to support, then they should be free NOT to give to Scientology, correct? I thought we were in agreement that one’s spending decisions should be under one’s own control and not answerable to anyone else? Have you changed your mind?
            Remember, lurkers…
            Scientology is NOT the government; it should NOT be used as a gun. Religious donations are NEVER a requirement (voluntary gifts vs. enforced fees–there is a difference! Look up the dictionary definition for “donation”). The choice NOT to donate money to Scientology is a valid option you can take. If the pressure of donating is hurting you, you have the choice, the freedom, the self-appointed permission to STOP GIVING. That’s a part of self-determinism.

    • MaxSpaceman
      June 26, 2016 at 7:18 pm

      And “The Unbreakable Miss Lovely” by Tony Ortega, from Silvertail Books.

      The riveting and compelling story of Paulette Cooper.

  4. PRenaud
    December 2, 2015 at 4:50 am

    That guy has a “ENORMOUS” personality problem to take care of, he will have to step down that ladder where he thinks he’s “king shit of turd island” and realize he’s nothing more than any other human being. Most of my family, my friends, my neighbors, my colleagues at work have decided that they are not longer supporting that nitwit’s acting career.

  5. Mary
    December 2, 2015 at 8:24 am

    Thank you. You are right. Cruise should be held accountable. He knows a good part about the abuses first hand. I lost my son because I made it my business to find out the truth about the church of scientology and its leader david miscavige.

  6. TheHoleDoesNotExist
    December 2, 2015 at 10:55 am

    Tom Cruise has supported an organization that acts like a mixture of the mafia, North Korea and Scams R’ Us. No one joins an abusive cult. People get suckered in by false and misleading blah blah that scientology’s golden boy, Cruise, spits out for decades now. And yet he takes no responsibility whatsoever for luring them in.

    Tens of thousands of former members, myself included, escaped before the worst that could happen happened. I lived to talk about it, to warn others. Tom never asks where did 90% of the scientologists go? Tom never cares. Scientology routinely breaks human beings down, slowly, piece by piece, financially, physically, mentally, and in every other way that you can possible destroy another person’s life. Paulette Cooper mentioned John Travolta. He currently promotes Narconon, Scientology’s faux drug rehab scam. I’ve lost count of the lawsuits piling up over the last 3 years or the number of mothers and fathers who cry themselves to sleep after their son or daughter died in one of them. John does not weep for them or ask about them either.

    There is no more excuse of “I didn’t know” or “just following orders”. All you have to do is ask Google and the truth pops up in 5 seconds. Thousands now have told their stories of unbelievable horror. Thousands ask how this can still happen in the USA. But not Tom or Cruise. In over 40 years, they haven’t asked about a single one of “Scientology Disappered”.

    • pluvo
      December 2, 2015 at 11:30 am

      When one googles “Former_Church_of_Scientology_members_who_have_spoken_out” there is a list with over 2600 ex members of the Church of Scientology who have spoken out (with there real names). They have been (devoted) members for many years and even decades.

      • Captain MustSavage
        December 2, 2015 at 11:37 am

        That figure makes a complete farce of scientologys claim that there are only a handful of critics out there.

  7. Liberated
    December 2, 2015 at 2:25 pm

    Loved the cyanide in the cheek part. Great article!

  8. Frodis73
    December 2, 2015 at 2:57 pm

    Great article! All sci celebs should be boycotted…the list isn’t as long as it used to be, but there are many. Laura Prepon, Danny and Chris Masterson, Jenna Elfman, Kirstie Alley, John Travoltra, Greta Van Sustern, Nancy Cartwright, Beck, Erika Christianson, Elizabeth Moss…I know I am forgetting some, but boycott all of them for supporting child abuse, child labor, forced abortions, disconnection, forced labor, etc.

  9. December 3, 2015 at 12:48 pm

    Tom Cruise is already a respected star so your advice is as overdrawn as it is misplaced. Oh well – “You do you” so stop ignoring your involvement in what you and you do.

  10. December 3, 2015 at 1:25 pm

    I see you are compensating, over compensating, for your short comings. Cruise is an international mega star–did you miss that? Even your 2 friends who want his MI 5 movie get it. You should dump them as friends as they don’t see eye to eye with you.
    Fact–nothing tarnishes Cruise’s star power. And he credits Scientology for his success.

    • One Human
      December 3, 2015 at 3:00 pm

      But his star power is fading, and he will likely never become renowned for his acting ability.

      • December 3, 2015 at 11:47 pm

        Your predictions about the future are baseless and he is already renowned for his acting ability.

        Here’s a list of awards he’s either won or “only” been nominated for.


        • December 4, 2015 at 7:06 am

          I had no idea. Incredible!
          Add to that the stats on highest paid, world famous and all that–he can’t be beat.

          • Bob Crouch
            December 4, 2015 at 1:29 pm

            I’m sure the high pay comes in handy when joining a cult known for its unvarnished greed in taking advantage of its steeple. Hubbard made it abundantly clear that it was about nothing but the money. Too bad for him that his career and reputation take a hit every time he brings up the cult. Seems like he finally learned his lesson.

            Miscavige is afraid of the press, Cruise prohibits them from mentioning the cult and the ways its true face has been exposed. The price of drinking the Kool Aide.

        • One Human
          December 4, 2015 at 7:16 am

          Among the list, the long ago Academy Award and BAFTA nominations are notable, but the rest are mostly for popularity, which he has enjoyed for a long time.
          I simply find it unlikely that he will be considered exceptional for his ability to be versatile or to really absorb a role with depth. Meryl Streep, John Hurt, Ben Kingsley, and many more from the last century, are in an entirely higher caliber of performances.

          • December 4, 2015 at 12:18 pm

            I will agree with your idea of creating a comparison between Cruise’s prize portfolio and that of the other prospective gold medalists. But it is by fiat that only one can win a single trophy at a time. It seems like you have built a mental hierarchy (metaphorically speaking), where the upper echelons win recognition and below that level there are no calibration marks. As a result you are overlooking all but a few aspects of the craft and contriving that a three-time Academy Award nominee is circa zero in terms of his brilliance.

          • One Human
            December 4, 2015 at 12:40 pm

            No mental hierarchy necessary, I simply can’t stand Tom Cruise, and will express my opinions as respectfully as possible.
            I’ll add, his brilliance is quickly fading.

          • December 4, 2015 at 12:56 pm

            Gotcha. Now that’s what I like – putting it straight instead of blending one’s feelings about an individual with attempts at objective judgement of their performance.

            But what I still don’t get is that if you can’t stand him then why do you agree to assign the quality of brilliance to him in the first place?

          • One Human
            December 4, 2015 at 1:06 pm

            I can respect a person’s work and dislike their off-screen personality. I was never impressed with his early works, but did enjoy ‘Rain Man’ and ‘Born On The Fourth of July’.

          • December 4, 2015 at 1:36 pm

            By all means. Feel free and don’t sell yourself short.

            So even some of his biggest detractors such as yourself have been known, on more than one occassion, to credit him with a great performance as an actor. That’s pretty impressive.

            The main reason I have avoided the vast majority of his movies is that they never seem to touch on themes that interest me. The only one that I know of that did was “The Outsiders” which was based on a book I absolutely loved as a child. The more I hear what you have to say though, the more I am convinced I need to give some more of his movies a try despite my not really being a member of the target audience.

          • One Human
            December 4, 2015 at 1:52 pm

            That’s just it for me, most of the “popular” movies just don’t interest me ( ‘Fast & Furious, ‘Transformers’, etc.).
            Agreed, S. E. Hinton books were great!
            I am a huge movie junkie. Classics, offbeat, documentaries…I’m always finding something unexpectedly interesting.

          • December 4, 2015 at 4:11 pm

            Edge of Tomorrow turned out to be a fan favorite. It didn’t get a great start as I (and others) thought it was a Sci Fi Ground Hog Day. meh. But my husband likes the genre, and likes the sub-genre. I ended up enjoying it greatly. That seems to be what happened with many viewers and so word of mouth carried it to an ever bigger audience that found it very entertaining. It now has a bit of a cult status among Cruise fans.

            I got a kick out of War of the Worlds. Nice effects. Thought Cruise did a great job. It also shows a father redeeming himself, a son who … never mind, don’t want to spoil that little piece. I thought it was a pretty good family show.

          • December 4, 2015 at 4:45 pm

            Great. As an indirect result of this article I am becoming much more “open minded” (excuse me while I clear my throat) about Tom Cruise movies. I’ll put War of the Worlds near the top of my “to watch” list now too- primarily because I want to be more like you. ;-)

          • December 4, 2015 at 8:09 pm

            hahaha–I will admit that because I enjoy Cruise on screen, it makes the movie more enjoyable. Some other star may not have made the movie as good as he can make it. But it that genre is not your cup of tea, skip it. Of course, then you will never be like me ;)

          • December 4, 2015 at 8:22 pm

            lol, Actually, it was your description made it sound like a candidate for my list. But you know me. Like you, my brain is washed and so I can’t respect or listen to “my own thoughts” before taking the path of an apostate.

          • Bob Crouch
            December 4, 2015 at 10:20 pm

            Or like the Academy who has skipped all of his genres for his entire career.

          • Robert Eckert
            December 4, 2015 at 9:26 pm

            The effects in War of the Worlds were due to Spielberg. I liked a lot about that movie, but not Cruise particularly. Tim Robbins in a brief role and the relatively unknown Justin Chatwin as the son both outacted Tommy.

          • Bob Crouch
            December 4, 2015 at 1:57 pm

            There are artists, like the ones you mentioned, and then there are commercially highly successful entertainers. Few people would be confused as to which category Cruise belongs in. And if they are, no amount of explanation will help.

          • December 4, 2015 at 2:07 pm

            So much for your claim that the Academy Award business means something to you.

    • Bob Crouch
      December 3, 2015 at 3:33 pm

      Dump them? Why communicate (the “universal solvent” according to your cult founder), if you can “disconnect” instead.

    • Avid Miskaridge
      December 3, 2015 at 11:16 pm

      Yes Elle, compensation, overcompensation and undercompensation are all psychological constructs used by individuals to shelter themselves. Your use of psychology concepts to aid your point of view is commendable.

  11. Bob Crouch
    December 3, 2015 at 4:01 pm

    It’s not like Cruise is exactly a “respected figure.” He is extremely bankable when it comes to light-weight entertainment. When it comes to actors of known intelligence, his name never comes up. In 30+ years, his name hasn’t been on the Academy’s radar. Whenever he decided to make himself his cult’s spokesman, his career and PR took a dive. Which is why he refuses to discuss his insane and odious cult now.

    Since your friends appreciate high-quality movies, perhaps the highly acclaimed “Going Clear” would make a great gift. They’ll learn why you can’t support the Cruise money machine in good conscience any more than a Michael Jackson sleep-over.

    • December 3, 2015 at 8:01 pm

      Who else acknowledges these groups of “actors of known intelligence” to which you refer? That is certainly at the Academy Awards or the Screen Actor’s Guild or any other even semi-related organization that I can think of. It sounds like something that is not on anyone’s radar but your own.

      • Bob Crouch
        December 3, 2015 at 8:22 pm

        No, it is certainly NOT an AA category. However, there are some actors who are often mentioned as being smart, insightful, astute, and other things along those lines. The simply have that kind of “reputation.” Sometimes, the kind of work they take on gives them that as well. I have yet to hear Cruise’s name being mentioned in such a context–anywhere.

        You don’t listen to the guy being interviewed and go, “Wow, what a brilliant man. How smart and well-informed.” My point is that just because an actor is very bankable, that does not make them particularly expert at anything, other than pulling in money. Their choice of cult may still be PLAIN DUMB! It certainly shouldn’t be imitated.

        • December 3, 2015 at 8:36 pm

          Name an actor who is often mentioned as being smart, insightful or astute. Then clarify where this occurred and who the commentator was.

          You are again trying to pass off your personal opinion as well-thought-of by others and therefore worth more than it’s worth. It’s all well and good to believe that Cruise isn’t “expert” at his profession, but to try to pass that off as a consensus opinion is ludicrous.

          • Robert Eckert
            December 4, 2015 at 9:23 pm

            Daniel Day-Lewis. Benedict Cumberbatch. George Clooney. Matt Damon. Tom Hanks.

          • December 5, 2015 at 1:03 pm

            Seems like you’re struggling to remember a story about somebody saying something about these people you’ve mentioned. Here’s a popular technique. Ask yourself “Who? What? When? Where? Why?” and then maybe the flow will come back to you.

          • Robert Eckert
            December 5, 2015 at 5:03 pm

            You could look for yourself to see what thoughts those actors have expressed and how others have engaged with them.

          • December 5, 2015 at 6:50 pm

            Seven random projects chosen by Robert Eckert. Sure, why not? I’ll put that on my bucket list.

          • Robert Eckert
            December 5, 2015 at 6:56 pm

            You asked for actors who are considered more intelligent than Tom Cruise. I listed some just off the top of my head. I have heard all of those speak on serious subjects. I have never heard Tom Cruise speak on any serious topic except to make an ass of himself, as in the Matt Lauer interview or the turtleneck sweater video.

          • December 6, 2015 at 10:55 am

            So the identity of the person who thinks Cruise is unintelligent is YOU. Thank you for finally making your point in answer to my inquiry.

          • Robert Eckert
            December 6, 2015 at 11:30 am

            Not me only: if you had more of a capacity to read for comprehension you would find that I said nothing of the kind. If you wish to find examples of statements they have made and other people reacting to them, you are welcome to Google. You think that I have some obligation to spoon-feed you, which only serves to show the limits of your own intelligence.

          • December 6, 2015 at 11:34 am

            I don’t think you even know what it is you want me to eat much less would you be able to motive me to try harder on your behalf to find out. Nevertheless this little tangential exchange has been quite amusing. Chau.

          • Robert Eckert
            December 6, 2015 at 11:59 am

            “I don’t think you even know what it is you want me to eat” WTF??? I don’t actually have any concern about what you do or do not eat. Like some of your other strange utterances, this one leaves me wondering what in the world you think you read in my post and what thought processes happen in your head.

            “much less would you be able to motive me to try harder on your behalf to find out” This clause does not even parse. Unlike the beginning of the sentence, which at least said something even if that was puzzling, this word salad fails even to say something.

            “Chau” You probably mean “ciao”, an Italian greeting used either for hello or goodbye. Spelling, like clarity of thought, is something Scientologists fail to learn in their “communications” courses.

          • December 6, 2015 at 12:38 pm

            You are TOO amusing! Keep ’em coming. When I’ve got the time I will certainly read…although just now I think I’ll go get myself a cup of tea with a spoonful of sugar in it.

          • Bob Crouch
            December 6, 2015 at 12:00 pm

            It is pretty difficult to watch Cruise’s exchange with Matt Lauer or his maniacal scientology promo (claiming that only scientologists are prepared to help at the scene of an accident) and conclude that this guy has all the fries it takes for a happy meal! Those utterances go a long ways toward casting doubts on Cruise’s intelligence!

        • December 3, 2015 at 9:04 pm

          Wow that’s a radical revision of your original comment. You must have read my reply and taken it to heart somewhat.

          Incidentally, my personal impression based on my own experience and that of friends and colleagues doesn’t jive with the idea that people imitate famous people based on the model’s IQ. I think that what inspires people to imitate others is much more varied than that and tends to center on things like “charisma” and other aspects of the person’s lifestyle.

          (P.S. I have no idea what Cruise’s IQ is, nor do I care.)

          • Bob Crouch
            December 4, 2015 at 10:33 am

            No it’s not. Maybe you just didn’t read my first post or are just beginning to catch on. No real difference between the two posts

          • December 4, 2015 at 12:28 pm

            Right, that’s exactly what happened. Wink, wink.

          • Bob Crouch
            December 4, 2015 at 10:39 am

            I agree with you there. Like Cruise or not. Think of him as charismatic or not. But none of that is a reason to think of him as an expert at anything, other than filling cinema seats. I certainly wouldn’t want to take marital, political, medical, religious or “religious” advice from him.

          • December 4, 2015 at 2:12 pm

            Yeah, I didn’t say any of those things so it’s hard to imagine you agreeing with me about them. But I do definitely agree with what I take to be your basic sentiment that people shouldn’t substitute their desire to emulate others for decisions based on what works for them.

  12. December 4, 2015 at 6:45 am

    Hey Elle, how’s the cackling inside your head going? You know, that little voice that tells you that you don’t really feel good/better despite those success story you wrote up (in fact you feel worse after your latest step up the Scientology ladder)… and that little voice in your head that tries to blot out their constant regging, demanding more and more money from you, and that little voice that asks why all the orgs (and ideal orgs) are half-empty and closing when they tell you Scientology is expanding, and that little voice in your head that says that maybe you ought to go to the Internet and read some entheta (try tonyortega.org each day) because it isn’t right that someone is telling you that you can’t think for yourself.

    This is my last post to you because you, like Scientology courses, are a waste of time. One day you’ll get out (if you’re lucky) and realize the whole world was right and you were wrong. Hopefully, it won’t be too late by then. And oh yes, drop an e-mail to magoo44@charter.net; she’s good at getting deluded Scientology shills out. You can ask her questions — unlike what you can do with Scientology — and she’ll give you honest answers — unlike what Scientology will do to you.

    • December 4, 2015 at 7:00 am

      Tory McPoo offeres nothing. Shrill lunatic.
      Another problem you have is telling me that I can’t believe my own eyes, or my own experiences. Your extreme bias and how it benefits you is the prism through which you see everything. Par for the course, you insult and ridicule me, my life, my wins. If you think your camp offers anything attractive, uplifting, upbeat to me, you are dead wrong.

      You deal with you immortal soul the way you want, and I’ll deal with mine.

      PS That psych inval and eval is wasted on me because it’s evil.

      • Ben Franklin
        December 4, 2015 at 7:29 am

        You live in a bubble and the only things you hear and see are Hubbard’s nonsense. That is why everyone you are coming across is telling you that you are insane, and you somehow think you are normal. You are insane. You are a raging cult lunatic. Parroting Hubbard’s fictional nonsense that has no basis in science or logic.

      • December 4, 2015 at 8:11 am

        You certainly make the case for CoS bringing stability and happiness to people, elle. Now, tell us about Xenu. https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/eaaec0a1c6d90fc515f9fc24b0b4945a650711f62d077978d44c91121588f628.jpg

      • Sergeant Pepper
        December 4, 2015 at 3:00 pm

        Tory Christman is shrill? LOL. Please call your mother, elle.

        • December 4, 2015 at 3:20 pm

          Guess you did not see her harassing Aletha. It was interesting to see her give a visual to illustrate her verbal and textual screed.

          • Sergeant Pepper
            December 4, 2015 at 6:12 pm

            Have you seen the video of church executives Marc Yager, Dave Bloomberg, and Jenny Linson Devocht harassing Marty Rathbun? That’s what I call shrill. Such ecclesiastical behavior! Google “Marty at LAX”. NSFW warning, vulgar expletives from the “church” representatives.

    • December 4, 2015 at 4:04 pm

      Ms. Cooper, sorry you had to skedaddle so quickly. Perhaps you could provide me with some information I’ve asked your fan club to provide. Could you provide a copy of the certificate(s) showing that you completed any service at the Church? It’s been many years since I heard about that, or what motivated you to cross the threshold. What service(s) did you take and complete? I seem to recall an old interview of yours saying you went into the Church to get a story.

      Not only did no one provide a certificate(s) showing your service completion(s), the whole issue was dropped like a hot rock. But I think it is fair to ask for some small evidence that you actually participated in a service or two.

      • Bob Crouch
        December 5, 2015 at 9:20 pm

        Someone asked about Hubbard’s certification as the nuclear physicist he claimed to be (I’d settle for certification that he passed his freshman year. Despite the lies the cult tells you, don’t try too hard to dig it up–he didn’t). As you put it, “the whole issue was dropped like a hot rock.” By you, no less!

  13. December 4, 2015 at 4:16 pm

    I don’t think it makes an iota of difference that I did what was then called the HAS course… Scientology has tried for years to find out what name I used and I think it’s amusing that 40+ years later they’re using you to try to find out. Anyway, I described my immediate disillusionment with the techniques in my book which you can read free at http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Library/Shelf/cooper/sos.html. There are many better books that have come out since then so I would recommend them instead. Don’t be insulted but I really don’t have time to correspond with someone who doesn’t have an open mind.

    • December 4, 2015 at 4:27 pm

      Ah, that’s why I don’t remember what you did. It’s just a little too convenient that you cannot prove that you did anything at all, or ever stepped foot inside a Church. Perhaps you did not go there to get a story, as you claimed, but to make a story. That is nothing new, but you have perhaps set the bar on keeping it going and milking it.

      Your psychology history makes you doubly suspect. You adhered to a practice that is adversarial to religion in general, and Scientology in particular. It was competition for you. And if it were revealed that you never so much as put a toe in the doorway of the church, you would be discredited in the eyes of your fellow psychs–or maybe not given their lack of integrity in general.

      You would think that in almost 40 years, the Church would have found out what name you used by now. That’s another reason to think that you were never inside the door.

      PS I think my mind is as open as yours. I’m sure you are familiar with what “open mind” really means.

      • Ben Franklin
        December 4, 2015 at 7:24 pm

        Paullete Cooper is a Harvard Graduate and you are a nobody, just a confused cult shill with a pea sized brain and a big mouth. Always remember that.

        • Glen
          December 4, 2015 at 10:08 pm

          Brandeis, I believe.

      • sundaygirl
        December 4, 2015 at 8:06 pm

        After 40 years, if no one in your organization “cares a wit” about her, why would it still be trying to figure out what course she took and what alias she used? Your comments are betraying your pretense.

        • December 4, 2015 at 8:15 pm

          No one cares. I just want you nitwits to prove yourselves with producing a certificate. Now I know why you can’t do it. She never did any Church services. She just blows wind.

          • romanesco
            December 4, 2015 at 9:27 pm

            Quit saying “no one cares” when you mean you don’t care. Or more precisely, you want other people to think you don’t care, when in fact you care very much.

          • Ben Franklin
            December 4, 2015 at 9:36 pm

            I would be surprised if she never burned that garbage. The most useless certificates in the universe.

          • Captain MustSavage
            December 5, 2015 at 4:24 am

            Perhaps you can provide us with documents relating to Lafayette’s university qualifications? You know, his degree in nuclear physics perhaps? By your logic someone who can’t show documents clearly never did what they claimed, they just blow wind. Imagine that. It might be the one accurate thing you’ve said.

          • sundaygirl
            December 5, 2015 at 7:47 am

            Continue the “no one cares” bit, but continue to be very much invested in proving she didn’t take a class. 40 years ago.

          • Captain MustSavage
            December 5, 2015 at 10:44 pm

            Come on, elle, I just want you nitwit to prove yourself with producing a certificate. Now I know why can’t do it. He never completed any university degree. He just blows wind.. Your words are super applicable to Lafayette, don’t you think?

      • Robert Eckert
        December 4, 2015 at 9:09 pm

        “I think my mind is as open as yours” Outside observers would not agree. Misjudging one’s own mental abilities is common. You may believe you have the ability to remain open to other viewpoints, but no such openness has actually been seen to occur from you.

        • December 5, 2015 at 6:23 am

          You think Pee Cooper is open to other viewpoints? Don’t think so.

          • Robert Eckert
            December 5, 2015 at 8:35 am

            She has had an extraordinarily wide range of experience and exposure to people of very different kinds. You look very foolish trying to take potshots at a woman with her breadth of knowledge.

          • Bob Crouch
            December 5, 2015 at 2:05 pm

            As a holocaust survivor, I don’t imagine that she is open to viewpoints glamorizing that event. As a survivor of decades-long campaigns by scientology to destroy her life with illegal and immoral means, I would imagine she has developed a definite and informed outlook on that cult as well. She’d be a naive fool not to!

          • December 5, 2015 at 4:02 pm

            What did she do to survive the holocaust? I want to know what she did that deserves my admiration and respect.

          • Bob Crouch
            December 5, 2015 at 5:37 pm

            Are you still having trouble choosing sides on the holocaust issue? Maybe, you are unsure whether you’d rather admire and respect those that were out to kill her and her sister (after already killing both of their parents)?

            If you need more details to make up your mind, feel free to consult Tony Ortega’s excellent “The Unbreakable Miss Lovely.” It discusses how she survived as a Jew in WW II and as a journalist up against a criminal cult.

          • December 5, 2015 at 6:16 pm

            It sounds like she was very lucky to have born to a father with a committed and principled friend. A piece about her survival I read said that as an infant in 1943, the year following the Wannsee Conference, she was freed from a Nazi concentration camp – likely right before being transported to Auschwitz to be killed. This evidently occurred after her father’s friend bribed a prison guard to let her and her sister go. Both of her parents, according to the definitions stipulated in the “1935 Law for the Protection of German Blood and German Honor” were Polish Jews who could be and were killed earlier as part of the “final solution” to the “Jewish problem.”

          • December 6, 2015 at 3:38 am

            Correct, she was lucky. Her father’s friend is the hero and deserving of admiration and respect. Pee Cooper herself did not do anything. I hope she donates generously to organizations that support Jewish causes that rectify the atrocities as best possible.

          • Ben Franklin
            December 6, 2015 at 8:50 am
          • December 6, 2015 at 9:24 am

            She hugged and kissed the son of the man, de Hoo, who saved her? Is she a practicing Jew? Did she reimburse the family for what the father paid to save her? What Jewish causes does she support that help rectify damages done to the Jews? How generous is she? Was de Hoo a Jew, or a righteous gentile?
            Not only did Pee Cooper not do anything herself that merits respect, she has made a career out of black propaganda against a religion much like what the Nazis did against the Jews to garner support (or at least silent opposition) to every atrocity the Nazis committed against the Jews. It appears she is dramatizing the oppression she believes she once suffered and aiming it another innocent demographic. It’s off target and is a mental derangement. No wonder she hears cackling out side her door.

          • Ben Franklin
            December 6, 2015 at 9:52 am

            What exactly did Paullete cooper write that is not true in her book “The Scandal of Scientology”. You have never even read Paullete Cooper’s book to know what is written in it. You just condemn her because your church leaders tell you that she is a terrible person. What is if you have been lied to? Have you ever thought about that possibility? Read before you make any judgements or insult a person. If you want to believe your Church, that’s fine, but it is only fair that you read her book too, otherwise, you are condemning something that you don’t even know or have a clue about.


          • December 6, 2015 at 10:28 am

            Pee Cooper personally has convinced me she is a terrible person.

          • Ben Franklin
            December 6, 2015 at 11:10 am

            You can’t point one single thing that she has done that is terrible. I know you are angry because she told you that she is not going to get into silly arguments with you since you don’t even understand what you are talking about.

          • December 6, 2015 at 11:17 am

            Her fictitious experience about going into a church and doing a service showing she had a prior agenda to forward forms a foundation of quick sand for her entire narrative.
            And she hears cackling but never sees the people. And unseen people sneak into her home to leave a token like a glove. She “knows” they are Scientologists. Either she is nutty and therefore deserves a modicum of sympathy, or she is evil. Maybe both.

          • Bob Crouch
            December 6, 2015 at 11:27 am

            You have no proof that her experience was “fictitious.” Hence, the ” foundation of quick sand for YOUR entire narrative.” 45 years later, her book still holds up. Many others have come forward and confirmed her account, doing their own research and drawing on their own experience.

          • Ben Franklin
            December 6, 2015 at 11:29 am

            She is not the only person who has gone into a Scientology Church and taken a course with the aim of exposing the church as a fraud. Why is criticizing the Church of Scientology such a terrible thing? So what if someone criticizes something. That is why we have Freedom of Speech and Freedom of religion. Anyone can choose whatever religion they like and others should be free to criticize a religion if they believe that it’s practices are harmful.

          • Ben Franklin
            December 6, 2015 at 11:32 am

            Although the Church of Scientology creed states that “all men have the right to think freely, to write freely, their own opinions and to counter or utter or write about the opinions of others,” this has not applied to anyone who wishes to think, speak or write against Scientology.

          • Bob Crouch
            December 6, 2015 at 11:32 am

            A journalist and author who enjoys world-wide respect and admiration for her backbone in standing up to the relentless attacks of a criminal cult, Ms. Cooper was kind enough to condescend and talk online to none other than you–a nobody shilling for that same cult. Her response evidence something that yours yet have to develop: class.

            So that’s a “terrible person?” Could you possibly get any shriller? I love your posts, elle; they reflect so well on what the cult is really like. And they show how clueless you are as you apply your master’s “tech” and embarrass the whole lot of yours. Your good work is not going unnoticed!

          • One Human
            December 7, 2015 at 12:52 pm

            Your abject callousness to someone surviving The Holocaust has fully demonstrated that YOU are a terrible person.
            How dare you!

          • December 7, 2015 at 6:25 pm

            She was an infant, 11 months old, right? What did she do–nothing. She was lucky. Good for her, but that does not entitle her to special adulation. It was not something she accomplished.

          • Bob Crouch
            December 7, 2015 at 6:35 pm

            Nobody recommends “special adulation” of Ms. Cooper. However, as a journalist she undoubtedly made her mark. So much so that your cult tried every dirty trick in the book to silence and ruin her, for decades. In fact, you are continuing to this day to make her out as a “terrible person.”

            Every time you do, it demonstrates the continuing importance of her ground-breaking journalistic achievements and the despair of your pointless little snipe attacks.

          • One Human
            December 8, 2015 at 6:50 am

            She lost both parents, lived in a few orphanages, came to a new country with one sole passion, and was separated from her sister for decades.
            And what the f@*! have you done that’s so special?

          • December 8, 2015 at 4:28 pm

            Tough. She got here and should be very very very grateful. What Jewish causes does she support to rectify the damages done to Jews? Maybe she does–never hear about them. Her BIG claim to fame is being an alleged victim and writing a lying book. meh

          • Bob Crouch
            December 8, 2015 at 5:43 pm

            Actually, your label of “alleged victim” is not only cynical but also dishonest. Unless you are a holocaust denier, of course. Then you have even bigger problems than the ones you so faithfully exhibit through most of your posts. As to her being a “victim” of outrageous atrocities committed against her by scientology, this part is well documented in documents the FBI recovered in its raids on the cult.

            If hers were a “lying book,” one wonders why scientology lawyers–the expensive and unscrupulous kind the cult copiously employs–as well as all shady kinds of scientology operatives were NEVER able to give ANY evidence of her alleged dishonesty. They tried in 19 law suits in every major country in the English-speaking world and they got–ZILCH! In fact, numerous books have appeared since then that make the same (and often even more damaging) allegations. And how many times has the cult prevailed? NOT ONCE!

          • December 7, 2015 at 7:50 pm

            Would you allow that there are are ANY individuals who themselves harmed others despite having survived The Holocaust?

          • One Human
            December 8, 2015 at 6:53 am

            Perhaps, but I’m sick of elle pulling $#!* out of her ass to slam Paulette Cooper.
            While I know that either of you reading “The Unbreakable Miss Lovely” is highly unlikely, it is a fine example of the human spirit overcoming incredible hardships.

          • December 8, 2015 at 2:54 pm

            MANY people who are known to have been victims of atrocities have gone on to be perpetrators, sometimes doing less harm and sometimes more harm to others than was done to them. I’m sure if you were to reflect on it for a moment you would remember knowing that before, because it is a global phenomenon.

            I don’t consider a soul overcoming hardship to be an inspiration. To me what matters is what kind of qualities a person develops as a result of overcoming hardship. I believe that what is and ought to be inspiring to all is when a soul refuses to become tarnished as a result of bad actions against it.

            Back to Ms. Cooper. You are right that I have not read the book you mention in its entirety. But I have read enough to know that it is not a book either about an individual who overcame hardship or an individual who did so by becoming a greater person for it. It DOES NOT PROFESS TO BE such a book. (Read the Forward if you doubt my recollection on this point.) And the stories around the book reflect the same – Cooper is depicted as someone who has overcome many obstacles in the way of her goals but never as a woman who endured privation or hardship. Nor is it denied in the book you mention that the years of ideological confrontation between Cooper and the Church of Scientology took place as a direct result of her desire to initiate them.

            Elle and I are among those whose activities are dealt with in this book. When you say that elle is pulling the things she believes out of her ass you are letting it be known in no uncertain terms that you are not in the least interested in finding out what she has to say about her own reality although she is the one being memorialized. You are consciously avoiding the possibility of ascertaining the other side and in so doing you are killing the personality of the other AS WELL AS YOUR OWN. You are not thinking of her words as the extension of a human soul, instead you are thinking of them from the standpoint of an object. This is a negative way for you to go in the personal history of me and you.

          • Bob Crouch
            December 8, 2015 at 5:55 pm

            “Ideological confrontation?” Usually, that means an exchange of ideas. It does NOT mean trying to ruin someone, framing them for a serious crime, posting flyers about them alleging all kinds of filth, etc. All of thees things were done to Cooper by the cult.

          • December 8, 2015 at 6:22 pm

            You grossly exaggerate, and whatever did happen, or was thought about doing, was 40 years ago. Since, we just cackle outside her door but she never sees us. Get over yourself, Pee Cooper.

          • Bob Crouch
            December 8, 2015 at 6:48 pm

            Not a single one of the atrocities that scientology directed at Cooper was exaggerated. Some of them were 40 years ago, some of them much more recent. But more revealing, the cult tries to justify them to this day. There has never been ANY admission of wrong or culpability. And YOU are part of that evil! Just read your own posts.

            But there are plenty of other recent similar activities to point to. “Squirrel busters” terrorizing an entire neighborhood for 200 days. Miscavige using tax-exempted “donations” (more like “forceful extractions”) at $10k a week to send heavily armed thugs after his own father. Telling them to “let him die” should they see this almost 80 year old man in a medical emergency.

            The cult has not changed its mind, has not reformed, is no better today than 40 years ago.

          • December 8, 2015 at 7:26 pm

            Awwwww poor baby.

          • Bob Crouch
            December 9, 2015 at 12:07 am

            It is telling that you can be so cavalier about a person having been targeted with so much harassment, including a slew of illegal activities–as long as this occurred in the “best interests” of the scientology cult. Says a lot about how that “church” thinks and operates. Also says a lot about how it affects its “parishioners”–I don’t imagine you were this callous before falling in with these people.

          • December 8, 2015 at 7:20 pm

            confrontation (noun) the act of confronting

            confront (verb) to face boldly, defiantly or antagonistically; to meet in hostility; to oppose

            (Webster’s New Universal Unabridged Dictionary)

          • Ben Franklin
            December 8, 2015 at 8:25 pm

            As much as I think you talk a lot of nonsense at times, you are a bit more honest as than elle. I respect the fact that you admit that you haven’t read Cooper’s book. You say that you do not “consider a soul overcoming hardship to be an inspiration.” I disagree, but that is Okay because it is a personal opinion. “what is and ought to be inspiring to all is when a soul refuses to become tarnished as a result of bad actions against it.” Ms. Cooper was hounded for years by the church of Scientology for writing a book that church officials disliked. Despite being fair gamed Ms. Cooper never held any grudges, persevered through, and helped others. I encourage you to read about Ms Cooper yourself and may just be shocked to find out that she is not really such a bad person. She never hated Scientology, she just wrote what she felt was the truth and she was attacked viciously by the church for it. The least you can do is read for yourself what she wrote and then decide instead or relying upon someone else interpretation of the book.

          • December 8, 2015 at 8:43 pm

            You do not know whether or not I read Cooper’s book. You are not my confidant.

          • Ben Franklin
            December 8, 2015 at 8:54 pm

            You just mentioned in your comment that you haven’t read it.

          • December 8, 2015 at 8:59 pm

            What have you been smoking?

          • Ben Franklin
            December 8, 2015 at 9:03 pm

            You cannot claim to have read a book if you only read a portion of it.

          • Ben Franklin
            December 8, 2015 at 9:09 pm

            Where is your Paranoid schizophrenic friend?

          • December 9, 2015 at 6:10 am

            Is that the one who whispered 411 in your ear about my familiarity with Cooper’s book? Wise up because that “friend” is lying to you.

          • Ben Franklin
            December 9, 2015 at 6:27 am

            You know the one I am talking about. Your friend who is allergic to truth. The one that claims to have been a part of every major Scientology event and have worked with several Scientology celebrities and know them personally.

          • Bob Crouch
            December 9, 2015 at 10:35 am

            What? You’ve been accused of actually having read a book that you are dismissing online? Outrageous!

          • December 9, 2015 at 3:33 pm

            Did Franklin share with you some of that LSD laced wacky weed he’s been smoking?

          • Bob Crouch
            December 9, 2015 at 4:18 pm

            How is volcano-dude Xenu? Any luck with the body thetans yet? Still waiting for that “tech” to do something–anything? Still believe that Hubbard was a “civil engineer” as well as a “nuclear physicist?” How about the 12 million scientologists the cult claims? Any news on Hubbard’s return–Davey sure could use some help?

            Wacky weed? YOU of all people should NOT be going there!

          • sundaygirl
            December 9, 2015 at 4:21 pm

            What would have been polite and communicative is if you had cleared up the confusion about which book you were talking about. Instead of being childish and confrontational, you could’ve acted like an adult and just typed Ortega’s book’s name. I guess that’s too much to ask for though from a member of an “attack don’t defend” organization.

          • December 9, 2015 at 4:26 pm

            You know exactly what you are doing.

          • Bob Crouch
            December 9, 2015 at 10:43 am

            Usually, you don’t have to be someone’s confidant to discuss a book. Usually, there’s this concept called “intellectual honesty” that demands that you only discuss books that you have actually read. Of course, that does not apply when “discussing” with scientology shills who are prohibited from reading certain books but mandated to savage them anyway. Poor things, they’re “flying blind,” and it shows!

            Scientology is an amazing “religion:” They offer a “Training Routine” on lying (Hubbard’s chief area of expertise) but NONE on honesty. Go figure!

          • December 9, 2015 at 3:37 pm

            He did not issue a civilized invitation to discuss the previously unmentioned book. He simply relayed a message about it out of the blue. A message evidently voiced by his paranoid schizophrenic “friend” who whispered something in his ear about the Cooper’s book. So much for your “intellectual honesty.” But your new rumor based on the theory that I discussed Cooper’s book and then deleted all the textual evidence will be amusing so carry on.

          • Bob Crouch
            December 9, 2015 at 4:14 pm

            I did not say anything about the nature of his invitation. And YOU are one of the most ill-prepared people in this forum to be discussing “civility.” (Note: I did not say “the” most ill-prepared as there’s always your little friend elle to compete with for those “honors.”)

            As I said: Scientology is an amazing “religion:” They offer a “Training Routine” on lying (Hubbard’s chief area of expertise) but NONE on honesty. Go figure!

          • One Human
            December 10, 2015 at 6:34 am

            I appreciate the thoughtful response.
            Indeed, what one does after their hardships is the proper measure of honorability.
            Among those that have impressed me in this regard are John Howard Griffin, the Bielski Brothers, and even Muhammad Ali.
            I certainly do not wish to diminish the personal experiences of you or elle, I in fact welcome you to share them, even more so as it may pertain to Paulette’s story or other areas you may feel deserve an alternate perspective.
            Hopefully we can continue to do so in a respectful and welcoming manner.

          • December 10, 2015 at 8:28 am

            Do you believe in the right to confine information about his or her personal experiences to the purely private realm? And if so, to fortify that space against incursions from the outside?

            To be clear, there is no alternate perspective on my private space. Others either honor it or they do not.

          • One Human
            December 10, 2015 at 8:35 am

            I accept that, I was merely suggesting that details that can comfortably be offered to refute or add dimension to accounts from others are more appreciated than simply disavowing them.

          • December 10, 2015 at 10:34 am

            A helper actualizes his or her caritas (to chose a non-Scientology word) by actively working to fortify the venerated space all beings are entitled to by right. Efforts worthy of a helper are welcome and efforts unworthy of that status demand to be permanently abolished. If one cannot respond to this minimal standard of genuine respect in all human relations, all of one’s efforts to “find out” about the conditions of others will be cut off and rejected with more and more forcefulness as time goes on.

          • December 8, 2015 at 4:25 pm

            Oh, boo hoo for Pee Cooper. Saint Augustine of Hippo is an inspiration. CS. Lewis is an inspiration. Dr. Ben Carson, Justice Thomas, Louis Zamperini–these are inspirations, the human spirit overcoming incredible hardships.

            Maybe I missed something. I don’t see that Pee Cooper overcame incredible hardships. As IFF points out, that alone is not enough to be an inspiration. What did they become after they overcame hardships? Pee Cooper certainly eats Martin Luther King’s dust on that count.

          • Bob Crouch
            December 8, 2015 at 5:48 pm

            And all of these inspirations that you name wouldn’t sink to wiping their xxx with anything that Hubbard has written. I’d be curious what Augustine or CSL, lovers of truth that they were, would have to say about a liar and impostor such as Hubbard. Or wouldn’t it be fun to hear MLK speaking out about the human rights violations in the cult? I’m sure he would also “enjoy” your glibness about what was done to Jews in WW II.

          • December 8, 2015 at 6:24 pm

            I think they would understand very the religious nature of Scientology, and how the religious people are assassinated in every way possible by the forces of evil. So there.

          • Bob Crouch
            December 8, 2015 at 6:41 pm

            Assassinated? So here we go again with the drama.

            And if you think that they would indeed “understand very,” you are deluding yourself. To name just one, CS Lewis was a very astute thinker. He would have spotted a fraud like Hubbard a mile away. And you really think that MLK would have subscribed to the idea of equal rights for all–except the ones we don’t like? In that case, no atrocity is too severe?

          • Bob Crouch
            December 6, 2015 at 11:37 am

            I take your point, loud and clearly: You would have preferred it if the Nazis had taken care of this “Jewish problem.” But it is very bad form for you to advertise it this publicly. Even more people will be turned off of your hateful little cult!

          • December 6, 2015 at 10:10 am

            I don’t know about it being either all luck or constituting her doing exactly nothing or that her father’s friend is likely the only one to deserve credit. True, she wasn’t an adult and others would undoubtedly be hearing an entirely different kind of story if she had been. Nevertheless, according to the information you now have about it (thanks to me), you now know that those events were part of her life and that she did survive Nazi rule even after having been incarcerated and marked out by them to die.

            But the entire idea that somebody deserves respect and admiration because of something horrible that happened to them is incorrect – I strongly believe in that sentiment. To assert that they are is to repeat demagogy and is highly disrespectful of everybody, including the person “annointed” in that way. You show her a thousand times more respect than the groveling sycophants around here because you take her words and deeds on their own merit. They are wrong and anti-virtuous because they try to use her to exploit the Nazi Shoah for selfish ends.

          • Bob Crouch
            December 6, 2015 at 12:11 pm

            The majority of people who respect and admire Ms. Cooper don’t do so because she managed to survive the holocaust. In fact, most people probably did not even know that about her until recently. And true enough, she obviously did not play an active role in her escape from Nazi rule.

            However, she stood up to a criminal cult and refused to wither under decades of attacks. She brought truth to the world that many were unaware of at the time, and encouraged others to follow in her footsteps. THAT is admirable in the extreme!

          • December 6, 2015 at 12:35 pm

            With this kind of childish nonsense you ACTIVELY work to bury the truth about the victories of all the anti-fascists, including the military men and women of your own country who fought side by side with and shed their blood alongside the British, Soviets, French and others to defeat Nazi expansionism. You will claim ignorance (in part by blaming me and asking me to “prove” what I say about the history that EVERYBODY KNOWS) but that is NO EXCUSE. You certainly know you are repulsive to me.

          • Bob Crouch
            December 6, 2015 at 1:06 pm

            Too bad I did not say any of the things you are so valiantly refuting. That left you to set up your own strawman. And what a transparent one at that. So go ahead: Entertain yourself by being “repulsed” about what I did NOT say. “Childish nonsense” is an apt description of your own feeble tactics.

            It is equally telling that you have no defense for the atrocities committed against Ms. Cooper by your own cult. Then again, there are none!

          • December 6, 2015 at 1:29 pm

            Oh yeah I forgot your “trump card” of “what I say about a phenomenon determines its being.”

          • Bob Crouch
            December 6, 2015 at 1:34 pm

            Care to talk about the cult’s atrocities committed against Ms. Cooper? I didn’t think so…

            And so the transparent distraction continues. True to the cult’s motto: If you can’t dig yourself into a hole fast enough, get a bigger shovel…

          • December 6, 2015 at 1:36 pm


          • Bob Crouch
            December 6, 2015 at 11:43 am

            I hope you donate to causes that rectify scientologist atrocities. There are plenty of those. Start with the atrocities against Ms. Cooper!

      • Captain MustSavage
        December 5, 2015 at 4:22 am

        How is psychology adversarial to religion in general? In what respect is psychology adversarial to Scientology in particular? What actions and behaviours has that profession engaged in that provides evidence of these assertions? Perhaps Scientology felt psychology was a competitor. I’ve seen no evidence that psychology knows Scientology exists.

        Perhaps you might be able to point out what the inaccuracies were in Paulettes book?

  14. Sergeant Pepper
    December 4, 2015 at 6:50 pm

    Nice article Reid Cammack. I wager you did not expect so many comments, or, even more surprising and disgusting, to find Scientology cultists attacking a holocaust survivor in your comment thread.

    • December 4, 2015 at 7:30 pm

      That fixed “wager” reeks. I could more legitimately “wager” that you are the Queen of Scots, but even if I were proven right, all the luck in the world couldn’t make you welshers turn my winnings over to me.

      • Sergeant Pepper
        December 4, 2015 at 7:53 pm

        I decline your wager. You appear to be an apologist for a cult which trains its adherents to lie.

        Anyway, it’s an amusing article about a social dilemma, with a hard kernel of truth. I think it’s nice, but obviously the cult doesn’t.

        • December 4, 2015 at 8:25 pm

          You can’t decline a wager that was never made.

  15. Doc M
    December 4, 2015 at 9:09 pm

    To Paulette and Ben, why bother responding to Elle.

    1 She won’t be able to hear you
    2 Just responding causes a cycle of back and forth
    3 It’s a waste of time

    I do understand why you try, but look at my avitar Polly (the Dog). She has much more heart and soul than any Scientologist I know.

    I’m sure you would say the same for your dogs Paulette.

  16. madame duran
    December 5, 2015 at 12:26 am

    Serious question for Reid Cammack: why don’t you give the “Going Clear” DVD to your friends as gifts? It’s one way of giving them something heartfelt while providing a visual explanation of why you couldn’t get them what they wanted on moral grounds? Maybe you should try being honest with them about your refusal. If your friendship breaks down as a result, they weren’t real friends to begin with.

    • Bob Crouch
      December 5, 2015 at 1:38 pm

      I would imagine that as individuals who appreciate great cinematic achievements they would appreciate being gifted with a documentary that has received three Emmys and is on the Oscar shortlist.

  17. December 5, 2015 at 11:12 am

    Fun facts

    Pure gold does not tarnish.

    Gold items less than 24-karat can show signs of tarnishing because the other metals in the alloy may react with oxygen or other compounds.

    Academy Awards of Merit have a 24-karat gold plating on their surface.

    Beneath the gold, the award’s interior is a metal alloy of tin (93 percent), antimony (5 percent), and copper (2 percent) known as Britannium or Britannia metal.

    • Bob Crouch
      December 5, 2015 at 1:35 pm

      Neither Cruise nor Travolta have any of the worries that come with owning an Academy Award.

      Of course, both of them received their share of “Razzies.” Tom got one of his in 2006, his scientology “banner year” for “Most Tiresome Tabloid Targets.” Without going into the “tiresome” details, one hint should suffice: Oprah.

      John swept the Razzies for bringing the works of a third-rate pulp sci-fi writer turned cult founder to the big screen. (Hint: LRH would be the initials of the epic wanna-be.) The result set an all-time Razzies record that has yet to be beaten.

  18. December 5, 2015 at 11:29 am

    Tom Cruise’s appearance in Times Square on Monday, July 27, 2015 was a huge success! He was so nice with his fans who turned out en masse to see him there. Great high resolution image representing the event! Ooooh, he’s so handsome in this picture too.

    • Bob Crouch
      December 5, 2015 at 1:20 pm

      While in NY, did he find time to visit Suri? Or is his cult leader, “captain” Dave still not letting him? It’s pretty sinister to find a cult that considers ordering its members to disconnect from your own flesh and blood (or face being disconnected from and harassed yourself) a “religious practice!”

      • December 5, 2015 at 1:23 pm

        Your wet blanket isn’t big enough to cover the enthusiasm depicted in that picture. You’d better go back to the drawing board.

        • Bob Crouch
          December 5, 2015 at 1:44 pm

          A little bit of “enthusiasm” on Tom’s part for his own flesh and blood may not be such a bad thing either. If the cult only let him…

          • December 5, 2015 at 4:00 pm

            You know nothing at all about his life–nothing.

          • Bob Crouch
            December 5, 2015 at 5:41 pm

            But, as usual, you are the keeper of the superior knowledge by which you get to grade ours? I know enough to be quite certain that scientology-ordered disconnection is an immoral, inhumane thing. Thankfully, it’s only the practice of the “fringest” of cults.

      • madame duran
        December 6, 2015 at 7:33 pm

        Please…spare little Suri from having to see that egg-toothed fake of a father (emphasis on the word “FAKE”). She has her maternal grandpa and uncle (and possibly other older males I’m unaware of) who are more reliable father figures than that fly-by-nighter Cruise. My heart usually breaks for kids raised without a loving, supportive daddy but in this case, Suri is better off without Tom.

    • December 5, 2015 at 3:59 pm

      Yes, he is such a great looking guy. And always so gracious to his fans and he sure has plenty of those.

      • sundaygirl
        December 5, 2015 at 6:04 pm

        Tom Cruise is super handsome, agreed. But, he’s the #2 man in an organization that harms people financially, emotionally, spiritually and mentally. Good looks don’t erase that. Neither does good box office.

        • December 6, 2015 at 3:40 am

          Nor can all your lying make anything you say true.

          • Bob Crouch
            December 6, 2015 at 11:42 am

            “Nor can all your lying make anything” sundaygirl says false.

  19. Bob Crouch
    December 5, 2015 at 4:31 pm

    To some, it may be puzzling how Tom Cruise’s advocacy for what may appear like just another small “religion” could tarnish his reputation or “star power.” A good place to start investigating this would be Alex Gibney’s recent documentary “Going Clear.” Enormously critically acclaimed and the winner of 3 Emmys (as well as on the 2016 Oscar shortlist), this documentary provides an excellent overview.

    One of Cruise’s more bizarre advocacies for the group was his 2005 interview with Matt Lauer. In it, he proclaimed that he knew the “history of psychiatry.” However, Matt Lauer, along with most of the rest of us non-scientologists, had–or so Tom calimed–no clue about the horrors visited upon us by the psychiatric profession and its various evil conspiracies.

    Not by nature a man given to deep or original thought, Cruise was repeating the ideas of scientology founder L Ron Hubbard. Undaunted by his notable absence of any qualifications, Hubbard had nevertheless developed the “Modern Science of Mental Health,” proclaimed himself “source” of everything anyone had to know about life (or lives, as we are apparently subject to reincarnation), and declared war on the “evil psychs.”

    20 years ago today, Hubbard’s teachings bore tragic fruit in the death of 36-year old Lisa McPherson. A scientologist, Lisa–after having been declared “clear” by none other than scientologist’s current head, “captain” David Miscavige–suffered a mental breakdown and was taken into a hospital for psychiatric evaluation. Scientologists strong-armed their way into the hospital and checked Lisa out to submit her to their own form of “care.” After 17 days of incarcerating her in a Clearwater, FL, hotel room, denying her qualified medical care and providing their own brand of remedies for her psychotic condition, Lisa passed away on December 5, 1995.

    A detailed breakdown of these events is provided in the “Underground Bunker,” a blog by journalist and scientology expert Tony Ortega. Additionally, many other documents are available online.

    Sadly, Lisa’s is only one of many examples of scientology quackery yielding fatal results, whether under the scientology logo itself, or in front groups such as its controversial “drug rehab” front Narconon.

    A more thoughtful person than Tom Cruise would probably think twice before lending his name, reputation and “star power” to luring others into such a nefarious–and potentially lethal– exploitative enterprise!

  20. December 7, 2015 at 6:57 am

    The award winning interview by Koppel of Mr. Miscavige has picked up over 5,000 hits since Nov 14 on just this copy found in my profile. Koppel held the interview over to keep it going. Enjoy.

    • Ben Franklin
      December 7, 2015 at 12:05 pm

      How many people do you think have either left or joined Scientology since Nov 15? I am willing to bet that there are more people who have left Scientology than joined. There is no real expansion, just renovated buildings being opened all over the place by Miscavige to create the Illusion that Scientology is expanding when it is actually shrinking very fast.

    • just another guy out there
      December 7, 2015 at 12:38 pm

      Nightline interview – almost 26,072
      “Scientology Leader David Miscavige caught lying on Nightline 1992” – 375,951 views

      • December 7, 2015 at 5:33 pm

        Almost another 400 just since you posted this.

        • just another guy out there
          December 7, 2015 at 8:50 pm

          Impressive! Since May 3rd, .0031% of the English speaking world has watched it! To be fair, there is the 9 part version too, posted Oct.2006, and the first part of that has 350,208 views so if you add them together that comes to .0448% of the english speaking world!

          The problem is that in the 9 part version the viewership drops off with each part. Part two is down to 134,317. Part 9 down to 91,281.

          Still with the recent version and part one combined, that is only a little over 770 more views than “Scientology Leader David Miscavige caught lying on Nightline 1992” You’ve got your work cut out for you!

          • December 8, 2015 at 1:49 am

            There was another copy with many more views that I originally linked but as soon as the guy started getting new hits, he took it private. Weird. And there are other copies. Not interested in your opinion hit piece. I’ve witnessed enough of it here and it’s boring.

          • Bob Crouch
            December 8, 2015 at 2:23 am

            YOU may not be interested in knowing the truth about some of Miscavige’s ludicrous claims. But for those that are: “”Scientology Leader David Miscavige caught lying on Nightline 1992”

          • December 8, 2015 at 2:35 am

            You do not have nor disseminate any truth. You have a hate filled biased agenda, and you are egged-on by Ortega and his bunkerbut tools.

          • December 8, 2015 at 5:53 am

            I’m willing to bet you’re having a lot of good moments throughout your day today. Do I win big bank?

          • December 8, 2015 at 5:58 am

            That is very true! This time of year seem to be “lucky.” So you win. Just send me your account info and I’ll load it up for you ;)

          • Ben Franklin
            December 8, 2015 at 6:57 am

            You have so many O/Ws.

          • Bob Crouch
            December 8, 2015 at 12:57 pm

            Miscavige’s lies in the interview are DOCUMENTED. I know you are probably afraid to look it up.

            The biggest set of lies was the claim that Congress (at the prompting of the psychiatric profession) was going to build a big psychiatry gulag in Alaska. The gov’t would be able to commit people there arbitrarily for things such as losing their temper (definitely a concern for Miscavige, the physically and verbally abusive cult leader). He claimed that this plan was only derailed when scientology stepped in. He also offered to supply documentation. It is now 24 years later and he still has not done so.

            The lies:
            1. He misstated the purpose and intent of the law. It was to make AK independent in providing care to its own people
            2. There NEVER was a plan for a gulag
            3. There were NO changes of commitment law that were part of this
            4. Scientology did NOT avert ANYTHING. The laws that Miscavige misstated were passed by House and Senate UNANIMOUSLY! There was NO scientology “victory” over the evil psychs!
            5. There is NO documentation Miscavige could have provided. The who story he told NEVER HAPPENED!
            6. Scientology uses its great claims of keeping psychiatry in check as a fundraising tool. The fact is that the psychiatric profession is largely unaware of the minute cult.

            elle, if you think that this is “biased,” look up THE FACTS and tell me where I have made a mistake. You won’t because you don’t want to know the truth. You may think the interview is to Miscavige’s credit. On the contrary, it reveals him as a deceitful, conspiracy obsessed halfwit who would have been better off not dropping out of high school and not joining the cult of scientology.

          • just another guy out there
            December 8, 2015 at 4:21 am

            Nice open mind you’ve got there! Did you get that from $cientology?

          • Bob Crouch
            December 8, 2015 at 2:22 am

            “Scientology Leader David Miscavige caught lying on Nightline 1992” is a great piece. Fact-checks and debunks some of fake-navy Davey’s tin-foil hat claims.

        • Bob Crouch
          December 8, 2015 at 2:25 am

          I wonder: How many of those came from click-farms in the Philippines and Mexico. It has been conclusively proven that the “church” employs those liberally. A deliberately dishonest and manipulative “church?” Of course, we’re talking scientology here!

          • just another guy out there
            December 8, 2015 at 4:18 am

            Click farms are a possibility but I have noticed that the views have skyrocketed since the publication of Leah Remini’s book Troublemaker so it’s probably people wanting to see what the monster described in the book is all about.

    • Bob Crouch
      December 7, 2015 at 3:43 pm

      If you’ve seen “Going Clear” and you want to see the beady eyes of the abusive little cult leader for yourself, or if you’re wondering if scientologists are really as crazy as the documentary so convincingly asserts, and want to hear their side, sadly there is not much to choose from. This is because said leader is afraid of the press, and has spoken to them only twice in 30 years–too much to hide and answer for.

      The best you’ll be able to do is this 24 year old interview Koppel conducted with the cult’s chairman. After watching it, you’ll understand why the somewhat dim Dave is terrified of further press encounters.

      Another couple of fascinating Miscavige clips were posted on 12/6 on The Underground Bunker blog. They were leaked from an internal speech where he spun a fascinating conspiracy tale about the death of Lisa McPherson (Lisa died 20 years ago st the hands of the cult). Listens and learn

      • December 7, 2015 at 5:29 pm

        You don’t know what I have seen or read. You are not my confidant.

        • Bob Crouch
          December 7, 2015 at 6:24 pm

          No, I am not your confidant. I continue to be amazed that people in a group that touts their “communications” courses turn out to be so terrible at it.

          Just like your post, mine was directed at the generic (plural) “you.” Believe it or not, I was doing the same thing that you were: I was recommending that people (whom I addressed as “you”) check out this relic of an interview, as well as that other two-part video about Lisa’s death under scientology “care.”

          That way they don’t have to wonder whether your cult and “captain” Dave are really as crazed as the documentary shows them to be. The viewers will KNOW for sure! The videos speak for themselves.

        • December 7, 2015 at 7:33 pm

          😊 If Disqus were kin to that splendidly vetted online encyclopedia (bearing a hallmark commencing with the character W) and I could edit your comment to make it read whatever I wanted to have avowed, I would change your entry to “You don’t know what we’ve have seen or read. You are not our confidant.” Of course, it would make no difference as Crouch would go on denying (without actually “saying”) that he doesn’t know what ANYBODY but his confidants have seen or read and all those who already understand you will continue to understand you just the same. But no matter, this is not said illustrious encyclopedia, and so all of that has zero chance of ever coming to pass in any event.

          • Bob Crouch
            December 8, 2015 at 2:33 am

            Don’t be sore losers now, girls! Work on your famous “communication tech.” You’ll be OK–as long as you don’t look to the cult for that kind of help… We all know how well Hubbard’s tech works–or not!

          • Captain MustSavage
            December 8, 2015 at 10:45 pm

            Apparently ‘W’ (wikipedia) blocked all IP addresses from the church of scientology and its associates in 2009, effectively banning scientology from editing Wikipedia entries. According to Wired magazine (with similar stories in The Guardian, The Huffington Post, The Telegraph, Reddit..) the “punishment (was) for repeated and deceptive editing of articles related to the controversial religion.” I guess that does now make it splendidly vetted.

          • December 9, 2015 at 6:28 am

            I used to donate to wikipedia. But Scientology is not the only entries with false data. I found others. There is also an author–name escapes me at the moment, wrote thrillers I think–who found errors about his life and books. He corrected them and W delete and put back the false info. I don’t donate anymore.

          • December 9, 2015 at 8:18 am

            Did you know that World Book is the only company that publishes “hard” encyclopedias anymore? Yes, even Britannia (ooops I meant Britannica) stopped the presses. No I don’t work for World Book and this is not a paid advertisement, but they do have a really cool sounding CD-ROM as well. It includes not only the material of the latest encyclopedia set but the material from archives going back to the early 20th century. I may or may not have nonessential crib space for an encyclopedia set, but that’s how *I* want to spend my money in support of universal access to knowledge.

          • just another guy out there
            December 9, 2015 at 1:10 pm

            When you look up Scientology in the online version of World Book, there is a link to an excellent review of Lawrence Wright’s book “Going Clear the Prison of Belief” written by Randall Balmer, an Episcopal priest and chair of the religion department at Dartmouth College. One of the last lines of the review is” Perhaps it’s time we peek out from behind the ruse of “New Religious Movements” and denounce abuse perpetrated in the name of religion as well”
            Universal access to knowledge is a beautiful thing!

          • Bob Crouch
            December 9, 2015 at 1:25 pm

            Balmer makes an excellent point! It’s time indeed!

          • December 9, 2015 at 4:26 pm

            Nobody’s perfect.

          • Ben Franklin
            December 10, 2015 at 9:54 am

            except L Ron Hubbard?

          • December 10, 2015 at 10:43 am

            You can’t be trusted to ascertain the simplest of contexts. Okay, how’s this? No publishing house in the U.S. is perfect. I don’t like it because it doesn’t have the same ring to it, but the possibility of you grasping the basic meaning are now probably a tad bit higher.

          • Ben Franklin
            December 10, 2015 at 12:42 pm

            You did not answer the question.

          • December 10, 2015 at 12:55 pm


          • Ben Franklin
            December 10, 2015 at 1:27 pm

            Is L. Ron Hubbard perfect? Just a simple Yes or NO

          • December 10, 2015 at 1:38 pm

            While it is true that I did not answer the “question” and verified the fact when you questioned it, it is also true that under the circumstances I WILL not answer the question. Hope that clarifies. Have a nice day!

          • Ben Franklin
            December 10, 2015 at 8:12 pm
          • December 9, 2015 at 6:23 pm

            Seems he not only doesn’t know anything about Scientology but exhibits a bias common to liberal institutions. Episcopal churches have a long history of shifting and changing and splintering over every issue. Nothing much definitive. Some Episcopal priest(s) can and will come up with other opinions. Experience in one end of my family is they go to an Episcopal church, but if they get a new minister they don’t care for, they go find another they agree with.

          • just another guy out there
            December 10, 2015 at 7:05 am

            Did you read the whole review? Have you read “Going Clear”? He chairs the religion department at Dartmouth. Is it impossible that he has a valid opinion?

          • December 9, 2015 at 2:03 pm

            Ditto. I even have a 100+ year old set of dictionaries to find what words meant at different times and how so many have been altered since then. I think I’ll get that World Book CD. Wikipedia is unreliable, and online dictionaries are so abbreviated.

          • Bob Crouch
            December 9, 2015 at 2:53 pm

            I know scientologists hate ALL sources of information they can not control. But “Wikipedia is unreliable?” Really? And this coming from someone who finds stories about Xenu and the need to exorcise body thetans reliable?

          • Bob Crouch
            December 9, 2015 at 10:32 am

            Of course, there is also elle’s issue that Wikipedia no longer accepts edits from known scientology IP addresses. Imagine this: Here’s the world’s most democratic place for sharing your knowledge. And scientology sock puppets became such a plague that they had to ban them as an organization.

            It’s truly impressive that an organization no less managed to rise to such levels obnoxiousness! No other organization, let alone “church” has managed to do that!

          • Captain MustSavage
            December 9, 2015 at 11:12 am

            Its pretty convenient to forget the name in your story or what other entries you ‘found’ with false data. It allows you to present some sort of rebuttal without providing any information others can check to see if you’re being truthful or just making up a story. My understanding is that Scientology is the only entity in the world banned entirely from editing Wikipedia entries. That doesn’t happen for no reason.

          • December 9, 2015 at 2:01 pm

            You are lying.

          • Bob Crouch
            December 9, 2015 at 2:54 pm

            Actually, he’s NOT! A couple of minutes on google prove his point.

          • Captain MustSavage
            December 9, 2015 at 7:59 pm

            Can you be more specific about what you think I’m ‘lying’ about? According to L R Hubbard the first characteristic of an anti social personality is that

            “He or she speaks only in very broad generalities. “They say…” “Everybody thinks…” “Everyone knows…” and such expressions are in continual use, particularly when imparting rumor. When asked, “Who is everybody…” it normally turns out to be one source and from this source the antisocial person has manufactured what he or she pretends is the whole opinion of the whole society.

            This is natural to them since to them all society is a large hostile generality, against the antisocial in particular.

            I’m asking you to be specific as I’m sure that you don’t want to be labelled an anti social personality. Do you think I’m lying about Wikipedia’s banning? Its true. Anyone can google that. You can look it up on Wikipedia’s own site. Unfortunately for scientologists though this information would be considered “entheta” and so they’re not allowed to check for themselves.

        • Ben Franklin
          December 7, 2015 at 7:50 pm

          Below are just a few books I bet you have never read, otherwise you would no longer be a Scientologist.

          Fads and Fallacies in the Name of Science
          The Mind Benders
          Scientology – Abuse At The Top
          Blown for Good
          Inside Scientology: The Story of America’s Most Secretive Religion
          Beyond Belief: My Secret Life Inside Scientology and My Harrowing Escape
          Counterfeit Dreams: One Man’s Journey Into and Out of the World of Scientology
          Leaving Scientology: A Practical Guide to Escape and Recovery
          A Doctor’s Report on Dianetics
          Tom Cruise: An Unauthorized Biography
          Going Clear: Scientology, Hollywood, and the Prison of Belief
          The Church of Fear: Inside the Weird World of Scientology
          The Unbreakable Miss Lovely
          Troublemaker: Surviving Hollywood and Scientology
          My Billion Year Contract: memoir of a former scientologist
          The Complex: An Insider Exposes the Covert World of the Church of Scientology
          A Piece of Blue Sky: Scientology, Dianetics, and L. Ron Hubbard Exposed
          The Scandal of Scientology
          Bare-Faced Messiah
          Ali’s Smile: Naked Scientology
          Believe What You Like
          The Thriving Cult of Greed and Power
          Inside Scientology: How I Joined Scientology and Became Superhuman
          Scientology: The Now Religion

    • Captain MustSavage
      December 8, 2015 at 10:50 pm

      What did you think of the bit where a simple little Ted Koppel question forced Mr Miscavige to back track on a statement he’d made that scientology did more charity than any other organisation in the world? The question? “More than the Catholic Church?”

  21. Sergeant Pepper
    December 8, 2015 at 5:10 am

    that down in your book in great big letters. The only way you can
    control anybody is to lie to them.”

    – L. Ron Hubbard, “Off the
    Time Track,” lecture of June 1952, excerpted in JOURNAL OF SCIENTOLOGY
    issue 18-G, reprinted in TECHNICAL VOLUMES OF DIANETICS &
    SCIENTOLOGY, vol. 1, p. 418

  22. Ben Franklin
    December 8, 2015 at 11:10 am

    Escape from Scientology

  23. Ben Franklin
    December 8, 2015 at 8:44 pm

    25 bigest lies ever told by L Ron Hubbard and the Church of Scientology:

    1. The lie: “I happen to be a nuclear physicist; I am not a psychologist nor a psychiatrist nor a medical doctor.” — L. Ron Hubbard, in the 1952 lecture “Dianetics: The Modern Miracle.” Also found transcribed in the Research and Discovery series, Vol. 3 page 470, and New Tech Volumes, Vol. 5 page 143.

    The truth: Hubbard flunked both high school and college, leaving after his sophomore year at George Washington University during
    which he failed a course of “Molecular and Atomic Physics.”

    2. The lie: Hubbard was a “blood brother” of the Blackfoot nation.

    The truth: Blood brotherhood was not a practice of the Blackfoot.

    3. The lie: Hubbard slept with bandits in Mongolia, and traveled to India and Tibet.

    The truth: Hubbard never traveled to those countries.

    4. The lie: Hubbard was a “pioneering barnstormer at the dawn of aviation in America.”

    The truth: As Jon Atack points out, Hubbard flew gliders in the early 1930s, which doesn’t really put Hubbard there with the Wright Brothers (1903) or Charles Lindbergh, who crossed the Atlantic in 1927.

    5. The lie: Hubbard’s 1940 adventures in Alaska led to the development of LORAN, a radio-based system for navigation.

    The truth: Alfred Lee Loomis invented LORAN (Long Range Aid to Navigation) in the 1920s and 1930s at Tuxedo Park in the US. Hubbard was not even remotely qualified to do any serious electrical engineering.

    6. The lie: Hubbard created the US Air Force.

    The truth: In 1941, Hubbard was one of many people offering free advice to government officials about how the US should prepare for a war the country seemed sure to get involved in. On June 30, Senator Pat McCarran of Nevada wrote a letter to Hubbard telling him the he would, indeed, push for a bill to create a US Air
    Force. But ten days earlier, the US Army Air Corps had already changed its name to the US Army Air Force. The US Air Force, under the name we know today, came into existence later, in 1947.

    7. The lie: Hubbard claimed to have been awarded 21 or 27 combat medals in World War II as a navy lieutenant.

    The truth: Hubbard never served a single day in combat and was never awarded any combat medals.

    8. The lie: Hubbard was wounded in combat and was awarded two Purple Hearts and a Bronze Star.

    The truth: Hubbard’s US Navy service record shows that he never received Purple Hearts or a Bronze Star.

    9. The lie: Hubbard was “returned home as the first American casualty of the war in the South Pacific.”

    The truth: The US Naval Attache in Brisbane ordered Hubbard returned to the US for being meddlesome and quarrelsome.

    10. The lie: Hubbard was a “commander of corvettes” in the North Atlantic.

    The truth: Hubbard was assigned command of navy yard patrol vessel YP-422 in Boston Harbor. However, he was relieved of command before the vessel
    was commissioned after getting into an argument with the Commandant of the Navy Yard.

    11. The lie: Hubbard fought German U-Boats in the North Atlantic.

    The truth: No he didn’t.

    12. The lie: Hubbard was machine-gunned in the back by Japanese soldiers on the Indonesian island of Java.

    The truth: Not even close.

    13. The lie: Hubbard escaped from Java with a fellow spy in a rubber raft and drifted 2,000 miles back to Australia.

    The truth: As if.

    14. The lie: Hubbard sank a Japanese submarine after a battle that lasted 35 hours.

    The truth: He actually launched depth charges at a magnetic deposit on the ocean floor off the coast of Oregon.

    15. The lie: At the end of the war, Hubbard had “an almost non-existent future” because he’d been “crippled and blinded.”

    The truth: Hubbard was actually in good enough shape after a stay at the Oak Knoll Naval Hospital in Oakland that instead of heading north to his wife and two children in Washington, he went south to Pasadena to join Jack Parsons in his Thelemic sex magick rituals. Hubbard promptly took Jack’s girlfriend Sara Northrup away from him and eventually married her — even though he was still married to his first wife, Polly.

    16. The lie: In a lecture, Hubbard described English occultist Aleister Crowley as his “good friend.”

    The truth: Hubbard never met or corresponded with Crowley. Reading about Hubbard in letters from Jack Parsons, Crowley wrote to a friend, “Apparently Parsons or Hubbard or somebody is producing a moonchild. I get fairly frantic when I contemplate the idiocy of these louts.”

    17. The lie: Hubbard was actually participating in sex magick rites as an undercover spy from US Naval Intelligence, sent in to break up Black Magic in America.

    The truth: There’s no evidence of this claim, which was put out by the Church of Scientology. Hubbard’s son Nibs confirmed years later that his father had a deep interest in the occult and sex magick.

    18. The lie: Hubbard’s 1950 book Dianetics claims from the start that it was “a milestone for man comparable to his discovery of fire and superior to his invention of the wheel and the arch.”

    The truth: 65 years later, Dianetics has failed to deliver on even its most basic claims.

    19. The lie: In Dianetics, Hubbard said that following his counseling techniques, “Arthritis vanishes, myopia gets better, heart illness decreases, asthma disappears, stomachs function properly and the whole catalogue of illnesses goes away and stays away.”

    The truth: With no proof that Dianetics and its successor, Scientology, cured anything, in 1971 Hubbard settled with the Food and Drug Administration by putting a label on all “E-meters” that it was not a tool for the diagnosis of any disease.

    20. The lie: Dianetics promised the state of “Clear,” which would include “complete recall of everything which has ever happened to him or anything he has ever studied.”

    The truth: When Hubbard introduced his first “Clear” in August 1950, she was unable to remember what she had eaten on certain days, or even the color of the tie Hubbard was wearing. Hubbard didn’t claim to produce another Clear until 1966.

    21. The lie: “Dr.” L. Ron Hubbard earned a Ph.D. from Sequoia University.

    The truth: Sequoia was a notorious diploma mill which awarded bogus degrees based on no coursework or exams.

    22. The lie: “I never had a second wife.”

    The truth: While married to his third wife, Mary Sue Whipp, Hubbard made this bizarre claim in 1968 to Granada Television about Sara Northrup, who he badly wanted to erase from his life.

    23. The Lie: On January 27, 1986 Scientology attorney Earle Cooley told the assembled crowd of church members at the Hollywood Palladium that L. Ron Hubbard had been in perfect health on January 24 when he decided to drop his body in order to move on to do higher levels of spiritual research to which his physical body was an impediment.

    The Truth: Hubbard was in very poor health at the end of his life. Hubbard had a stroke about a week before his death. Following this stroke, Dr. Gene Denk gave Hubbard intramuscular injections of Vistaril, a psychiatric medication. About a week later Hubbard died alone in his Bluebird motor home, located on his remote ranch.

    24. The lie: A person can be a member of any religion and still be a Scientologist.

    The truth: In its application for its 1993 tax exemption, the Church told the IRS: “Although there is no policy or Scriptural mandate expressly requiring Scientologists to renounce other religious beliefs or membership in other churches, as a practical matter Scientologists are expected to and do become fully devoted to
    Scientology to the exclusion of other faiths. As Scientologists, they are required to look only to Scientology Scriptures for the answers to the fundamental questions of their existence and to seek enlightenment only from Scientology. Thus, a Scientologist who grew up in the Jewish faith who continues formal membership in his synagogue and attends services with his family violates no Scientology policy or tenet. On the other hand, such a person is not permitted to mix the practice of his
    former faith into his practice and understanding of Scientology so as to alter orthodox Scientology in any way.”

    25. The lie: Disconnection is a personal choice made by individual Scientologists.

    The truth: No….It….Isn’t.

  24. December 9, 2015 at 6:32 am

    I saw an article in, I believe the 70’s, from a small community in the mid-west that was remembering the anniversary of the day LRH landed a plane there because fuel was getting short. When he fueled up, he took residents for plane rides, a huge thrill in those days. There were many residents still around who remembered it. I did not save it but I’m sure the Church still has copies. It was very charming.

    • Bob Crouch
      December 9, 2015 at 10:24 am

      I read that story too. Unfortunately, after he left it was discovered that an inordinate number of wallets and other valuables had up and disappeared right along with him. The issue was never conclusively resolved but the circumstantial evidence (and knowing Ron’s “character” and greed) suggested but one conclusion.

      On the positive side, as far as I know nobody came up pregnant in any way they were unable to explain…

      • December 9, 2015 at 2:06 pm

        This proves just how evil and insane you really are. You are a vile human being. The anniversary article was a celebration, all good and fun news and some nostalgia. Not a word you say is true, but it shows your intense drive to lie just to be lying.

        • Bob Crouch
          December 9, 2015 at 2:47 pm

          Then again, we started with an imaginary town in Hubbard fantasy land to begin with. Hubbard was a hobbyist GLIDER pilot in the DC area during his ill-fated brief college stint (that he somehow later embellished into claims of being a “nuclear physicist” and “civil engineer” despite failing even introductory classes in related subjects).

          The rest of the stories is–as usual with the guy–also imaginary grandeur of things that never were. You can’t even name the town where imaginary people commemorate an imaginary festivity about an imaginary cross-country pilot!

          • December 9, 2015 at 2:50 pm

            You are a low-life bottom feeder–we all know that. No lie is too outrageous for you to spew.

          • Bob Crouch
            December 9, 2015 at 2:58 pm

            “No lie is too outrageous for you to spew.” You should tell Hubbard that! There is abundant PROOF that this statement applies THERE!

            All of that foaming at the mouth because I debunked your little story? Go for it, prove me wrong!

          • December 9, 2015 at 3:00 pm

            You debunked nothing. It stands in history with evidence and witnesses, a wonderful story of fun and kindness. Your lies and warped soul change nothing.

          • Bob Crouch
            December 9, 2015 at 3:02 pm

            Very well. Let’s start with baby steps: What is the name of this town? When did this fantasy event of yours occur?

          • December 9, 2015 at 6:24 pm

            I’m sure you can find it online, or the LRH life exhibition. In fact, I believe the article was reprinted in a Church publication or two. Your gang has all that.

          • Bob Crouch
            December 9, 2015 at 6:38 pm

            How about some credible sources? These places regurgitate even the most debunked and provably false garbage about their idol.

            I’ll settle for the name of the town. If the story were true (which it won’t be as the stories about Hubbard’s flying exploits are 95% lies just like the rest of his bio–by his own son’s estimate), it would be easy to confirm from this fictitious town’s paper or some online announcement.

            Supply the town name. I’ll do the research from there.

          • December 9, 2015 at 6:46 pm

            You have already supplied your own venomous narrative about the event with hideous details. Now you are saying you don’t know anything about the event–nothing? That’s why I seldom bother talking to you.

          • Bob Crouch
            December 9, 2015 at 6:50 pm

            And the name of the town is…

          • December 10, 2015 at 6:59 am

            You already commented on this article, telling us all about it. So don’t play dumb now.

          • just another guy out there
            December 10, 2015 at 7:10 am

            Certainly you have access to all of the $cientology information about Hubbard. Why not share the name of the town and the date of the event?

          • December 10, 2015 at 8:08 am

            Ask Crouch. He already posted alllllll about it. Of course, then he acted like he knew nothing about it. Too late. He staked his claim.

          • just another guy out there
            December 10, 2015 at 8:30 am

            Why are you unwilling to verify the story? It makes you appear to be unable to do so. Why deflect when you imply that you have superior knowledge of the event?

          • Ben Franklin
            December 10, 2015 at 9:50 am

            Just another day another lie by elle. Anyway, prove me wrong by providing a link to the article you are referring to, or at least the name of the magazine where you read the article about Hubbard giving free airplane rides to locals so that we can all check it out.

          • Bob Crouch
            December 10, 2015 at 3:54 pm

            And elle is right. For well-informed and unbiased facts on scientology, just ask Crouch:

            In a nutshell: During his freshman (and only) year at GWU, Hubbard became a hobby pilot flying gliders. It appears that he was very committed to that hobby. In fact, so much so that he was unable to complete most of his classes successfully (for example, he flunked introductory nuclear physics and math, even though he later often claimed to be a nuclear physicist as well as a civil engineer as well as a–you get the picture). He flunked out of school; that was also the end of his flying days.

            Now Hubbard being Hubbard could not help himself: So his dabbling in gliding quickly became blown up into a bigger story. In that story, he set various records, flew engine planes and became a barnstormer. As usual with the guy, NONE of that is true. But the “church” faithfully repeats these stories as they cannot admit that their “founder” was a sociopathic liar.

            So in a further embellishment, Hubbard does his barnstorming thing, lands somewhere in the mid-west, and the little townspeople are so taken with him (or have so little else ever happening there), that they celebrate the day of his arrival there annually to this day. A thoroughly hokey story of course. And impossible to be true as it is based on false premises.

            But elle would not be elle, if she did not buy into all the crap stories her cult tells. So she faithfully reposts this here as proof of what a great man Hubbard really was. Unfortunately, when pressed for even minimal evidence–the town name would be nice–she sucks wind as, obviously, the story never happened. And so it goes with “cult facts,” yet again.

          • Bob Crouch
            December 10, 2015 at 3:30 pm

            OK, so here goes another “elle” scam. Making a claim, hoping that no one will ask for FACTS. If they do, shine them on. If they still do, move on and sell the same lie to someone else.

            Dear elle: It is abundantly clear that this story of yours is entirely fabricated. I am not even asking for sources anymore. All I asked for is the name of the town. And you can’t deliver that! Let me suggest that you stop lying as you are making a fool of yourself as well as your cult.

    • IASREG
      December 10, 2015 at 12:42 pm

      Liar Ron Hubbard could not have landed a plane. Ron never learned to fly powered aircraft and never held a license to fly airplanes. Ron only had a small amount of experience with gliders, that is all.

      • December 10, 2015 at 4:32 pm

        IASSRAG, you are a LIAR.

        • Sergeant Pepper
          December 11, 2015 at 1:57 am

          You forgot to claim you saw a film somewhere of L Ron Hubbard receiving his pilot’s license from President Herbert Hoover.

        • IASREG
          December 14, 2015 at 12:03 pm

          You lie!

      • December 10, 2015 at 9:33 pm

        LRH obtained license to pilot motor powered aircraft in 1931. He even did barnstorming (which I think is awesome.)

        • Sergeant Pepper
          December 11, 2015 at 1:54 am

          You are incorrect, L Ron Hubbard only had a glider pilot’s license. Phil Browning was the pilot in this article, Hubbard was just a passenger.

        • Bob Crouch
          December 11, 2015 at 11:43 am

          He CLAIMED to have done these things. Other than his gliding hobby while failing across the board at GWU, there is NO evidence to corroborate that any of this is true!

          • December 11, 2015 at 12:01 pm

            He never claimed to have obtained license or told a story on that topic that I’ve ever seen or heard. I just happen to know that because of the Department of Commerce Aeronautical Division regs of the day he would have been required to pass a physical and the CARs test for aeronautical knowledge. Otherwise he wouldn’t have been legally credentialed to perform the feats he performed.

          • Bob Crouch
            December 11, 2015 at 12:45 pm

            YOU claimed he had obtained a license in 1931. HE claimed those “feats” of which you speak. Pathetically enough, you seem to believe him too despite of all his feats that have been so thoroughly debunked.

          • December 11, 2015 at 1:55 pm

            As far as I’m concerned you still haven’t made a complete point. Is your quarrel with LRH’s narrative that he should have had more and better propulsion-aircraft experiences, or that he never piloted the flight control systems of a jet at all?

          • Bob Crouch
            December 11, 2015 at 2:32 pm

            My “quarrel” is with the ficticious narrative that elle put out about Hubbard still being celebrated in the midwest for his landing there about 80+ ago. It’s yet another “church” fiction.

            Aside from that, I have yet to see any evidence anywhere that he ever piloted anything than gliders during his abysmally failing tenure at GWU.

          • December 11, 2015 at 3:16 pm

            When that is your attitude towards people who share their life experiences with you, you must know that you are doomed. What a sad fate you have chosen for yourself.

          • Bob Crouch
            December 11, 2015 at 5:48 pm

            Since when is making up a patently phony story, designed to promote sympathy for a con man cult leader, “sharing your life experience?”

          • December 11, 2015 at 8:44 pm

            Either you are claiming that I wrote the story under the penname L Ron Hubbard or you are claiming that LRH was already a “con man cult leader” when he wrote it at the age of 21.

          • Bob Crouch
            December 11, 2015 at 9:58 pm

            No. As be both know, that came later

          • December 11, 2015 at 10:32 pm

            That’s right. People like you couldn’t have invented that patently phony label for LRH in the early 1930s because 1) most of you weren’t born yet, and 2) LRH hadn’t yet become famous enough to be a threat to you.

          • Bob Crouch
            December 11, 2015 at 10:51 pm

            With a few exceptions, I always had him figured to be more of a threat to the few left in the cult. Which is why so many of them are bolting. Except for the “slower” ones, of course.

          • December 12, 2015 at 9:14 am

            Someone being born earlier than you and not yet being famous by the time they are 21 is about my manipulation of you?

          • Bob Crouch
            December 12, 2015 at 12:43 pm

            Acting obtuse may make you seem silly. However, it will do NOTHING to remedy the fact that Hubbard has been widely recognized as the fraud that he was. In keeping with his fake-Navy affectations: That ship has sailed.

          • December 12, 2015 at 3:36 pm

            Obtuse? lol. No, it is precisely the sharp-edge that you can’t stand. Which I must admit is as amusing as it is transparent.

          • December 11, 2015 at 4:51 pm

            I read the article. It was on some anniversary, maybe the 50th, making that about 1982. Sounds about right. I recall the local Church bulletin board in the reception area posting articles. It was very cool. I also remember an archivist that would occasionally bring the staff meeting some tidbit. Once it was a catchy poem written by LRH about a pirate.

          • Bob Crouch
            December 11, 2015 at 5:56 pm

            Did Hubbard cast himself as the pirate? As insatiably as he pursued other people’s loot, it would have been a good fit and a rare moment of honesty in his life.

      • December 10, 2015 at 9:38 pm

        The picture shows a Model T Ford aircraft. https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/37631a5b5e3926c973e1c048415d6f8fb36fb4e7524043b4d629567a4347b10d.jpg

        There’s a plethora of documentation about LRH’s career as a pilot so I won’t pick a favorite, but I will say that I like this article from January 1932 issue of a popular journal called Sportsman Pilot.

        Tailwind Willies by L. Ron Hubbard

        Last August, my friend Phil Browning (otherwise “Flip”) and I found that we had three weeks’ excess time on our hands before we had to get back to the college grind. Our resources were one Arrow Sport biplane (companion cockpit, sixty-horse LeBlond), two toothbrushes and four itchy feet. We had accomplished the old stunt of rattling around the country in a Model T in search of adventure, and after a few hours’ cogitation, decided that we had a new idea on an old plot. We carefully wrapped our “baggage,” threw the fire extinguisher out to save half a horsepower, patched a hole in the upper wing, and started off to skim over four or five states with the wind as our only compass. We had no idea of what we would encounter, but we knew that our “Model T” plane would get us out of whatever we got into and there we rested content. ‘We had no idea of what we would encounter, but we knew that our ‘Model T’ plane would get us out of whatever we got into…’

        Our primary thought had been to get away from people, but we reckoned without the kindly curiosity of the Middle West. Our very first landing in the southern part of Michigan assured us that we belonged to the curio section. We had spotted a nice green meadow and as the LeBlond had begun to drum too incessantly upon our ears we landed to obtain some relaxation and a quantity of quiet. We rated neither. Almost before our gear touched the grass we were surrounded by an anxious crowd which wanted to know whether or not we were still alive. There ensued an hour of continuous caution concerning the prop and an hour’s effort to keep alien feet off the catwalk.

        Aviation had become commonplace to our locale, so we found it hard to understand all this curiosity, this abundance of questions. Flip tired himself out explaining all the functions of the parts and finally in self-defense we cranked up and continued our journey, resigned to the truth that after all aviation was still a sideshow to some people. For the next two weeks all the rest we received was found upstairs in the little companion “office.” Our time on terra firma was mostly spent in guarding our precious Sparrow from thoughtless damage, explaining why airplanes really flew and refusing invitations to “make ourselves right at home.” Hospitality was proffered in all its forms, and if anyone thinks that this modern machine age has deadened our American kindliness and good fellowship, just let them take a backyard tour of the Middle West. We spent only one night in a hotel, and that because we landed in a thunderstorm after dark. The food offered would have done credit to the Waldorf. At the beginning of the trip we were a little skeptical of our ship’s abilities, but when, time after time, she pulled us out of small, muddy fields, we rested assured that the orange wings and wide-spanned wheels were capable of anything.

        Her faculty for ground-looping at sixty miles an hour saved us from caressing many a fence. Though she climbed slowly when once in the air, she lost very little time whenever we zoomed her out of cornfields to miss trees. At Newport, Indiana, we landed to take on gas, but the second our wheels touched the grass, we sunk a foot and stopped without rolling twenty feet. We fully expected to nose over, but the Sparrow set her teeth and put her tail right down. We took on the gas—only five gallons, to save weight—and then used up half the fuel attempting to get off. Although the field was a mile long, we spanked grass the entire length without rising an inch. The prop almost completed the harvest by chopping at the tall growth and making the sound of a machine gun quartet.

        At last we gave up. I crawled out to let Flip take a whirl at it alone. By using up half the field, he managed to wish the muddy Sparrow into her element, and after building some altitude, wheeled over the place where I stood and called down that there was another field a short distance away. After pacifying a sheriff, who was about to lock me up for trespassing, by shoving him into a mud puddle, I hopped onto the running board of a Purdue boy’s car and burned road over to Flip’s new landing place—if you could call it that.

        The second field was little better than the first, and three attempts were necessary before we willed the Sparrow up just in time to see a nine-foot telephone wire at the height of our prop. Flip threw the nose down and the wires were a scant foot above my head.

        We had intended to leave this section of the country for keeps; but a thunderstorm was all around us, we were almost out of gas, the magnetos weren’t functioning right, and it was almost dark, so we hit dirt again five miles away to stop dead in the middle of a wet plowed field.

        L. Ron Hubbard taking a photograph from the wing while airborne After that performance we left southern Indiana for more stout-souled fliers, and picked up the thread of adventure in Kentland, where a county fair was progressing nicely without our help. We tried to buy all the watermelons in Indiana by confining our menu to that fruit for dinner, breakfast and lunch. Some of the grifters showed us around, and that night after the midway darkened we were involved in a minor auto wreck. While the car was being repaired in a garage, Flip and I tried our best to “borrow” the siren of the VFD [Volunteer Fire Department] engine which was housed in the same garage. We were unsuccessful, however, and the forthcoming towns were spared the terrors of screeches issuing from the blue. In Ohio, we dropped a pushrod over a solid, if small, field and were lucky enough to find a machine shop close by in the town of New London. We spent the night as the guests of a gentleman farmer, the son of a famous professor, whose house was pleasantly cluttered with all manner of things Chinese. That morning had found us trying the only piece of navigation we attempted on the trip, and the results were marvelous. When we were forced down near New London, we found that we were only twenty-seven miles off a fifty-mile course.

        Almost every flier has heard that the cows love to eat the dope off the wings and even the fabric. Flip and I had put that fact down as just another one of aviation’s tall stories. At Andersonville (I forget the state)—whence we had flown in search of beer, which we didn’t find and wouldn’t have wanted, anyhow—we floated too far and when we landed we ground-looped too fast in avoiding a fence. One tire blew. While we were pumping it up, the other went down. Then the first refused to stay inflated, and evening found us marooned in a cow pasture. A farmer let several cows into the field, and though the cows had never seen a plane before, they dashed up and began to lick the fabric in ecstasy. We spent the next few minutes trying to keep them off until the puzzled farmer came and took them away again. After this we are going to keep the tongue away from the cheek around the hangars.

        One scene we witnessed will remain in my memory a long, long time. It was evening and the sun had almost vanished over the rim. Clouds were all around us on the horizon, their uppermost rifts so level that they made a continuous, circular black curtain which, though miles away, seemed to frown at us as they gradually came closer. We were flying at 3,000 feet, and though we traveled at ninety miles an hour, we seemed to have paused with the rest of an eerie world. Down below, the ground was streaked with long shadows made by trees and houses, small on a rolling terrain. Above the clouds, starting from a sharply defined line, the sky was a magnificent blue, dotted here and there by faint golden stars. For an hour we roared on, the LeBlond seemingly puny in all this expanse. Finally, I looked in back of us, and there above that black curtain, reared three flaming red tufts which seemed to blaze. I nudged Flip. He stared back at the clouds and began an immediate search for a landing field. Too much was too much. We had been up there in all that terrible grandeur so long that we had almost ceased to be earthly beings. We circled and circled over a huge stubble field trying to get back to earth. Finally our sense of dimension returned, and we set the Sparrow down. Anyway, with all our mishaps, we proved three or four things (something always must be proved by a flight): Light planes are practical for cross country work; a pilot doesn’t have to follow the air lanes and empty his purse into hangar fees—he can get along just as well trying this backyard stunt; and touring for pleasure in a plane is not half as dangerous as the skeptics like to believe, and twice as much fun as any other way. Sportsmen pilots do not have to limit their flying to their own backyards. The more the US is informally toured, the quicker aviation will find a place in the hearts of the chaps on the byroads. And they say romance is dead!

        • Sergeant Pepper
          December 11, 2015 at 6:35 am

          ” LRH’s career as a pilot”? He dabbled in gliders. Only a kool aid drinking scientologist would call that a career.

          Model T aircraft? Did you even read the article? It’s an airplane not a car.


          • December 11, 2015 at 10:38 am

            You question the existence of Model T Ford airplanes. Whatever makes you “happy” I guess.

          • Sergeant Pepper
            December 11, 2015 at 7:04 pm

            Wrong. The article clearly states the make and model of the plane Hubbard claims to have “barnstormed” in. It’s not a Model T. https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/90bbcc32012496c10f2cc3d6bcc014d6024cd7cdbd5cf8ee926e3fe739f15b13.jpg

          • December 11, 2015 at 8:29 pm

            Nice picture. Good to know that you are taking back your silly comment about Model T only ever meaning one thing. I heard there were only one or two people who ever flew the pictured plane in its entire incarnation as a product. Although lots of people playfully used the tag name “Model T” for The Tin Goose and the many other planes built by Ford as well as those equipped with Ford engines. At that time, Model T was a household name so if you can project your imagination to that time you will easily understand the popularity of the term. As far as the article you are so impassioned about is concerned, the author directly states not only the brand name of the aircraft model but also other features of the plane, including the engine type and the fact that it had a companion style cockpit for the co-pilot.

            So I guess the question I’m interested in (since you keep posting to me) is, do you have ANY IDEA what point you are trying to make? And, are you ever going to make it?

          • Sergeant Pepper
            December 12, 2015 at 3:16 am

            The point is you didn’t know the difference between a Model T airplane and the airplane you posted. Your lengthy evasion doesn’t change that fact but your feverish attempt to conceal your error is typical. Thank you for demonstrating how scientology makes a person less capable, not to mention dishonest and evasive.

          • December 12, 2015 at 8:55 am

            The one I posted is a Model T.

          • Sergeant Pepper
            December 13, 2015 at 2:25 pm

            I happen to have knowledge of that particular plane in the picture you posted. If you could provide some proof that it is a Model T, I would be pleased to pass it on to the current owner even though it would perhaps mean the forfeiture of awards he has won presenting it as something other than a Model T.

          • December 14, 2015 at 7:46 pm

            Your acquaintance may be familiar with this particular kind of biplane, but not this particular biplane. Anyway, my “lengthy description” should have given you the answer already. I thought it was arbitrary and solely the prerogative of the pilot to blazon their “baby” as they wanted. Who am I to question a matter of personal taste?

          • Sergeant Pepper
            December 15, 2015 at 5:15 am

            Wrong. The plane you pictured is not your “baby”. It belongs to someone else, as records of the tail number show, so it’s not your prerogative to rename it. Call it a Model T and pretend Hubbard is at the controls all you want, it doesn’t make it fact. It’s highly unlikely Hubbard ever laid his grubby mitts on the aircraft pictured and the rest of his barnstorming “flight of fancy” doesn’t pass the smell test.

          • December 15, 2015 at 7:40 pm

            When you forecast that I might want to be recognized as the pilot you were indeed wrong. Anyway, that’s not my style. I think Ford has been lauded far above his due. By the same token, I don’t even like it when people use the epithet Edsel to speak derogatorily about a vehicle. But all that’s just me.

            I think the true issue is that even with the successful elimination of all non-technical features of storytelling (as if that were possible) you wouldn’t respect even a less significant antecdote rendered by anybody you suspected of being a Scientologist. Your mind is already steeled and all you are doing is trying to twist everything others say or do into an example of how your preconceived notions are right. You’re even threatened by the prospect of taking minor things we say at face value. Or maybe I’m giving you too much credit – maybe your unwholesome determination runs so deep that you just can’t.

          • Sergeant Pepper
            December 16, 2015 at 5:19 am

            Edsel and scientologist together in the same post, very amusing.

            I ask again, have you read “Tailwind Willies”? Hubbard claims to be a renowned photographer (a legend in his own mind, I say) who often took photos while wing walking, yet he has no photos of the actual aircraft he allegedly barnstormed in, no photos of the thrilled crowds who witnessed his exploits, no photos of Hubbard at the controls. At the very best Hubbard is an incompetent journalist, but more likely this is another example of self aggrandizement from a habitual liar.

          • Bob Crouch
            December 11, 2015 at 11:09 am

            Very nice. So what do we know so far? L Ron Hubbard existed. The Model T aircraft existed. Groovy!

            However, the claim was that Hubbard flew these planes. It was also that he landed such a plane in the midwest somewhere, much to the delight of the locals who fondly remember (and commemorate) this event to this day (about 70 years later).

            Plane pictures (posted twice) notwithstanding, there is ZERO evidence that these claims hold true. In fact, despite repeated inquiries, the claimant is unable to provide even the name of the town, let alone when this event allegedly occurred. Like most of Hubbard’s biography and extraordinary claims about himself, it appears to be a simple fabrication.

          • Sergeant Pepper
            December 11, 2015 at 7:21 pm

            Tailwind Willies is the article. It appears only on cult sites. No photos of Hubbard at the controls, no logbook entries as Pilot in Command, no logbook entries of passengers. What a crock.

          • Bob Crouch
            December 11, 2015 at 9:55 pm

            Straight from the horse’s mouth, or really horse’s axx

        • Ben Franklin
          December 11, 2015 at 9:25 am

          Wow, A magazine article written by non other than L Ron Hubbard describing how great and wild a pilot he was. It is like listening to Donald trump tell us how he is the greatest and smartest human to ever walk this planet of ours. Why would anyone have any doubts about what they are reading?

          • December 11, 2015 at 10:36 am

            Do you imagine that the account of the trip published in the magazine is false?

          • Ben Franklin
            December 11, 2015 at 10:59 am

            What do you imagine?

          • December 11, 2015 at 11:27 am

            I respect your decision not to answer the question.

          • Ben Franklin
            December 11, 2015 at 11:35 am

            What makes you think that I have decided not to answer the question? I am just interested in hearing your answer first.

          • December 11, 2015 at 11:43 am

            Did I specify for how long? I don’t remember commenting on that and I don’t see it written anywhere. I would say that too is up to you. In my view, it’s a man’s prerogative to change his mind liberally.

            Anyway, thank you for your interest, but I asked you first. ;-)

          • Ben Franklin
            December 11, 2015 at 11:55 am

            No worries Fettle. I understand. I know these are extremely hard questions to answer.

            To answer you question: I don’t know. I was not there.

          • December 11, 2015 at 12:24 pm

            Where do you believe that your imaginings take place? Don’t worry, you can plead the 5th on this question just as you did with the last one – it won’t bother me. But just so you know – I do wish you the best of luck in relocating your lost imagination. Life must be so hard without it.

          • Ben Franklin
            December 11, 2015 at 7:01 pm

            Fettle, you are absolutely blind. I really mean that.

          • December 11, 2015 at 8:28 pm

            I have no doubt you are thoroughly convinced.

          • Ben Franklin
            December 11, 2015 at 11:37 am

            Being free means being able to speak truthfully and not be afraid of the consequences.

          • Sergeant Pepper
            December 12, 2015 at 5:18 am

            Of course it’s false. The “barnstorming” was allegedly performed in an Arrow Sport biplane, yet all the photos are of a Travel Air biplane. That Travel Air was used by the George Washington University flying club, where Hubbard apparently spent his study time while flunking out of school. Another transparent work of fiction by L Ron Hubbard.

          • December 12, 2015 at 8:58 am

            I don’t know what photos you are talking about. As far as I know there were no photos taken of the plane when it was in the air – which makes sense because only rich people and the government that kind of capability.

          • Sergeant Pepper
            December 13, 2015 at 2:17 pm

            LOL. That article claims that LRon Hubbard would wing walk to take photos and you’re claiming he couldn’t take photos of the plane in the air. I must ask again, did you even read the article?

          • December 14, 2015 at 7:59 pm

            Taking a picture of the plane in flight while wing walking? LOL is right!! What a way to take the term barnstorm (i.e. air circus) literally! Perhaps he could have used a tightrope to accomplish that feat. Actually, if we’re going to indulge in flights of fancy let’s just go for it and say he should have been able to astral project with his camera to get the right angle.

          • Sergeant Pepper
            December 15, 2015 at 4:48 am

            Hubbard was far too cowardly to wing walk.Here he is, on the wing with his camera (safely on the ground of course). So where are the aerial photos Ron claims to have taken? Why are there no photos of the actual aircraft he allegedly used?

          • Sergeant Pepper
            December 15, 2015 at 5:02 am

            Hubbard was far too cowardly to wing walk. Here he is, on the wing with his camera (safely on the ground of course). So where are the aerial photos Ron claims to have taken? Why are there no photos of the actual aircraft he allegedly used? Not one picture of the Arrow Sport plane, not one picture of Hubbard at the controls or even spinning the prop, not one picture of the awed crowds which came to see him or even one pic of an amazed passenger. Just a bunch of pics of a different airplane with Hubbard hanging around, on the ground, and a cock and bull story about a barnstorming “career”. It’s typical Hubbard: exaggeration, outright lies, and bait and switch.

          • December 12, 2015 at 8:59 am

            But I will say that your nerdish obsession about grades at school is quite revealing.

          • sundaygirl
            December 12, 2015 at 10:19 am

            What is revealing is that LRH felt the need to talk up his academic career and award himself fake degrees, even though he failed so miserably in college. One doesn’t necessarily need a grand education to do important things, but it is truly “nerdish” to pretend you’ve accomplished something you haven’t.

          • December 12, 2015 at 11:10 am

            I am familiar with the MO you are adhering to. In the culture one can have a certain amount of latitude when it comes to refusing to goosestep to the tune of the status quo, but only as long as he sits down and stops rocking the boat when he’s told. When it comes to achieving freedom, you are a sucker who rallies to the side of the “close, but no cigar” caucus.

          • sundaygirl
            December 12, 2015 at 12:58 pm

            Ha! A Scientologist calling someone else a sucker. That’s rich.

            Your comment makes little sense and offers no defense to the fact that your dear leader faked all of his credentials. How about focusing on the point instead of creating your own.

          • December 12, 2015 at 3:32 pm

            A Scientologist calling someone a sucker is rich because you already decided Scientologists are suckers. And you aren’t even self-conscious enough to be embarrassed to put a “thought” like that down into writing. lol

            Anyway, your other point is the closest to making sense I’ve ever seen you get. It would be true to say you want to me to focus on YOUR point instead of creating my own. But I don’t focus on your point in the exact way you wanted me to because your are wrong, and the one I “create” (i.e. acknowledge the existence of) is the real issue. If you had been interested in the truth you could have seen the connection between the two points and commented directly by agreeing or disagreeing with that.

            I will try to help you by dumbing down the issue down for you EVEN MORE. You believe that you get to be for some “universal” value of “credentials” and that means something. It doesn’t. Furthermore, LRH never made up any “credentials” to prove to you that he was suitable for anything. Instead he did want he wanted and was generous enough to share his experiences and insights with others so that anybody who WANTS to use him as an inspiration is free to do so.

            Don’t worry. If you still want to call the point solely “my creation” it doesn’t matter. It is true that I put it into words for you. But objective reality exists independently of the mind – i.e. apart from whether anybody chooses to recognize it or not.

          • sundaygirl
            December 12, 2015 at 4:41 pm

            There are multiple things wrong with that comment:

            1) “I will try to help you by dumbing down the issue down for you EVEN MORE.” Nice sentence, especially for someone who likes to promote herself as a published author with the crazy ability to look things up in the dictionary.

            2) “A Scientologist calling someone a sucker is rich because you already decided Scientologists are suckers. And you aren’t even self-conscious enough to be embarrassed to put a “thought” like that down into writing. lol” You are 100% correct that I feel no embarrassment with regards to my belief that members of your organization have been suckered. Duped. Flipped. Scammed. Whatever word you prefer. Anyone paying to put himself or herself under the fog of LRH has been damaged and, yes, suckered.

            3) “Furthermore, LRH never made up any “credentials” to prove to you that he was suitable for anything.” LRH called himself all kinds of things – commodore, Purple Heart recipient, nuclear physicist, etc – when he had not an ounce of the proper training/experience one needs to be accepted as such. He made himself appear large for someone, maybe not me personally, but for someone. Or, more factually, for something – money.

            4) ” Instead he did want he wanted and was generous enough to share his experiences and insights with others so that anybody who WANTS to use him as an inspiration is free to do so.” What is just as rich as a Scientologist calling someone else a sucker is a Scientologist mentioning the word “free” in any relation to your organization. LRH gave nothing for free.

            5) “It would be true to say you want to me to focus on YOUR point instead of creating my own.” Right, because that is what communication is. You tiptoe around anything of substance to add your unique spin to try to get the focus off of the misdeeds of your organization and your dear leader. You just stick your fingers in your ears. That’s what a child does; that is what a Scientologist does.

          • December 12, 2015 at 6:03 pm

            Okay, I’ll PROVE to you how without substance I am. The only thing I can take from what you’ve written here as a reflection of reality is that you don’t believe in the existence of others. Or in other words, you don’t believe in energy.

          • sundaygirl
            December 12, 2015 at 7:14 pm

            The only thing you’ve proven is that you are capable of writing more claptrap. Your well never runs dry.

          • December 12, 2015 at 8:16 pm

            With substance or without?

          • sundaygirl
            December 13, 2015 at 11:53 am

            Babbling about energy and reality and existence doesn’t make you deep. It certainly doesn’t mean your statements have substance.

          • December 13, 2015 at 12:28 pm

            The thing you’ve denied that I’ve proven wasn’t to be a point about “deepness” it was to be a point about how without substance my babbling spring of energy is. But that’s okay. You already proved the more interesting thing, which is that you don’t believe in any of that empty, nonsensical “claptrap.”

          • Bob Crouch
            December 13, 2015 at 3:24 pm

            I have to come to your defense here: “Babbling” DOES sum it up rather well.

          • Bob Crouch
            December 12, 2015 at 12:40 pm

            Don’t feel bad if fettle’s “reply” seems like nonsense to you. That’s because it is. If you need a grand pronouncement that means absolutely nothing at all, you can always turn to fettle. Or Hubbard, for that matter–the master communicators race!

          • sundaygirl
            December 12, 2015 at 1:00 pm

            Yep. Fettle is the master of pretentious babble. If there was a competition to see who could make the most words without actually saying a thing, she would win. Hands down.

          • Bob Crouch
            December 12, 2015 at 3:21 pm

            Yes, in the highly competitive field of meaningless babble generated by cult shills she has earned herself a special place.

          • Bob Crouch
            December 12, 2015 at 12:47 pm

            Actually, the revealing part is that the same Hubbard who was unable to attain even a low passing grade in subjects like freshman math and intro nuclear physics would later claim to be a nuclear physicist, a civil engineer and a variety of other false impersonations. Nothing “nerdish” about recognizing a complete fraud!

          • Bob Crouch
            December 14, 2015 at 6:38 pm

            So how did a simple statement of fact become a “nerdish obsession?”

            A person’s grades may not matter. Unless this person claims multiple degrees and academic accomplishments that they never attained. Or pretends to be an expert at education when they proved themselves so inadequate in that regard. Hubbard University? Surely, that’s meant as a joke!

          • Bob Crouch
            December 14, 2015 at 10:27 pm

            A little distraction from Hubbard’s many lies. It changes nothing but it’s cute.

          • Bob Crouch
            December 11, 2015 at 11:39 am

            It’s certainly not the only one. He also laid some doozies on the fine citizens of Alaska. As usual with the guy, he claimed to be conducting a “research expedition.” Needless to say, there is nothing other than his claims to corroborate any of it. Oh, but there is the matter of the loan he took out from an Alaska bank that was–surprise–never repaid.

            It’s funny that in this article he talks about hanging with “grifters.” Birds of a feather…

            Big surprise: Googling these little towns, there is NO EVIDENCE of Hubbard leaving any lasting, let alone positive, impressions there!

        • December 11, 2015 at 4:46 pm

          Totally delightful. Thank you so much. He was just 21. Already a gifted writer and adventurous.

          • Bob Crouch
            December 11, 2015 at 6:03 pm

            So nice and cuddly too. Too bad his greed led him to start a cult and bring misery to so many lives he ruthlessly exploited. Cause that’s where the money is, as he used to say.

          • December 12, 2015 at 7:15 am

            He never said that. When you provided the name of someone YOU claimed was a witness to it, I chased it down and it turned out that you lied lied lied, like you always do.

          • Bob Crouch
            December 12, 2015 at 11:49 am

            El Con also said “deny, deny, deny.” Your response was SO predictable. You would deny Kennedy saying “I am a Berliner” if you’d thought it would help your “cause.”

            Too bad for you that there were quite a few occasions when he said this. And several occasions means all the more witnesses. See, the problem with a sociopath is: It’s not enough to con, hurt, sometimes even kill people. He has to brag about it. And true to form, that’s exactly what he did.

            This quote is any bit as sure as the Kennedy one. Three minutes on google will confirm that for you abundantly.

        • IASREG
          December 14, 2015 at 11:56 am

          Hubbard tall tales. Ridiculous foolishness. Ron was never a pilot in real life. Never a war hero. Never wounded in combat. Never in combat. Never a college graduate. Never a nuclear physicist. Those were just a few of the many tall tales Hubbard told.

  25. December 9, 2015 at 6:36 am

    Los Angeles Police Dept. Operations presented a Badge of Distinction to L. Ron Hubbard in appreciation for this service as a Special Officer of the LAPD in the late 1940’s. Moreover, the award recognizes “his subsequent humanitarian works that have contributed to improving the quality of life in the citizens of Los Angeles.”

    • Ben Franklin
      December 9, 2015 at 7:07 am
      • December 9, 2015 at 7:50 am

        Original docs from 1947 already posted. Badge number included. The appreciation award stands. Suck up your sour grapes.

        • Ben Franklin
          December 9, 2015 at 8:01 am

          Nobody is denying the fact that L Ron was a Special Officer, just letting you know that there is nothing special about Special officer. It is a designation given to people doing community type police work such as public patrol, security guard type work.It is not extremely difficult to become a special officer.

          At the time L Ron got his Special Officer badge he was allegedly doing some work with Metropolitan Detective Agency. I bet L Ron probably just wanted the badge to con people into thinking he was a legitimate LAPD officer. The man was a conman. Conned Jack Parsons out of his boat, money and stole his girlfriend too. A dead beat father who was always running away from creditors. Never liked to pay his debts just like the Church he left behind.

        • Ben Franklin
          December 9, 2015 at 8:11 am

          Following his short stint as a special Officer, Hubbard was arrested for petty theft as the record below shows.


          • December 9, 2015 at 2:11 pm

            Gerry Armstrong is on tape orchestrating thefts from the church, plan to forge documents to then plant in the Church to be “found” by the IRS. Armstrong’s “legal” tactic was to just make F’ing allegations. If challenged for proof, he said to just say the evidence was shredded and then blame it on whomever. There is no getting around this fact about your “source” for your information. Read the Declarations of Stacy Brooks, and V. Aznaran.

          • Bob Crouch
            December 9, 2015 at 2:37 pm

            On tape–in your imagination. This tape is about as credible as claims to a Cruise-Miscavige sex video as you are unable to produce such a tape. Quit making stuff up!

          • December 9, 2015 at 2:40 pm

            Nope, that is his face right on the tape, and it’s his mouth moving. Listen to it sometime. Shows what you guys are really like.

          • Bob Crouch
            December 9, 2015 at 2:50 pm

            I’d love to listen to it. Other than in your imagination, where is said tape?

          • December 9, 2015 at 6:25 pm

            You find it. I did.

          • Bob Crouch
            December 9, 2015 at 6:47 pm

            You made this claim before. You couldn’t produce then, and you can’t now. Because there is no such tape.

            The “church” lawyers would have had Mr. Armstrong’s head on a pike. Yet that NEVER happened. They were ordered by the courts to pay him a settlement instead.

            So where’s the imaginary tape? Same place as the Cruise-Miscavige sex tape? I always knew, these two… You can tell by the looks they give each other.

          • December 9, 2015 at 7:13 pm

            Look at his head. It’s on a pike. You missed the fun. You make up stuff to decorate your narrow moribund universe.

          • Bob Crouch
            December 9, 2015 at 8:32 pm

            Sorry, I forgot. You probably know very little about Mr. Armstrong. He was any bit as committed to the cult as you are. Possibly more so.

            He was helping Omar Garrison write Hubbard’s biography. In the process, he found that a huge part of Hubbard’s life and accomplishments was nothing but a pack of lies. How? Because he had access to the documentary evidence! He begged the “church” leaders to set the record straight because he knew that eventually this all would come out–as it has.

            They weren’t having any of it. So the “church” paid off Garrison NOT to write a truthful biography, then they went after Mr. Armstrong. How dumb was that? This guy was still committed to the cult!

            Many lawsuits later, Mr. Armstrong prevailed. The “church” had to pay him. So much for your head on a pike.

            But back to the crux of the matter. Where is that tape where Mr. Armstrong allegedly admits to lying and manipulating documents. The “church” hate video–for all of its wild lies and claims–does not refer to a source. They never do, because they make it all up anyway. But here’s your chance to put it to rest:

            You claim there is such a tape. OK then. NONE of your (or the lying “church’s) claims means ANYTHING without the evidence. Where is it?

          • sundaygirl
            December 9, 2015 at 9:17 pm

            The only thing I’ve been able to find is a vague description of an “…an edited version of an illegally obtained 1984 videotape…” Many people would like to see this video; if you’ve actually found it on the Internet, please provide a link.

          • Ben Franklin
            December 9, 2015 at 7:44 pm

            Like always when you are scared to confront the truth you blame the source. You can obtain the same documents through Freedom of Information Act. Armstrong just published them online, and he is not the only one. If you somehow think the document is forged make a request yourself and you will get the same exact copies from the government. Hubbard had a lot of skeletons in his closet that Scientologists are never aware that is why you are told not to read anything on the internet. Do your own research and you will discover how much you have been taken for a fool by your own church.

          • December 9, 2015 at 8:26 pm

            watch armstrong on tape and listen to him. You are talking about something different and you are even wrong about that.

          • Ben Franklin
            December 9, 2015 at 8:34 pm

            You cannot deny the evidence, therefore the best you can do is say the information is somehow tainted just because it was posted by Armstrong. Keep in mind that sometimes the tape you see from OSA does not always show the whole picture. As much as you think Armstrong is such a terrible person,in large part he has mainly told the truth about the church, same with Paulette Cooper, Same with Mike Rinder, same with Leah Remini,Same with Debbie Cook. If you leave the church today, they will attack you too as a liar. In your case I might believe the church because I have caught you in so many denials and obvious lies.

          • Ben Franklin
            December 9, 2015 at 8:36 pm

            By the way, what Armstrong tape are you referring to,and where is it?? Where is the link to it?

          • Bob Crouch
            December 9, 2015 at 8:39 pm

            It’s in her head. And if there’s a link to her head, I refuse to click on it. Yikes!

            Don’t hold your breath; I asked about it a while ago–nothing. Asking for facts is a sure conversation killer with liars.

          • Ben Franklin
            December 9, 2015 at 8:52 pm

            Whenever she is caught in a lie she just pretends she never saw the question or runs away.

          • Bob Crouch
            December 9, 2015 at 9:46 pm

            Like just now

          • Bob Crouch
            December 9, 2015 at 9:45 pm

            Ah, the imaginary tape again. Still peddling the same lie. Let’s wait if Ben asks for evidence too. At that point, the jig is up and the debate is over. Don’t you get tired of having your ass handed to you?

            Or maybe you’re hoping he won’t ask? We’ll see. LOL

        • December 9, 2015 at 8:11 am

          Oh dear ;( I thought those were the shriveled balls of a brass monkey.

        • Ben Franklin
          December 9, 2015 at 8:25 am

          British diplomats investigating the qualifications of L Ron Hubbard exposed the Scientology founder as a fraud 30 years ago.

          The science-fiction writer, who invented the religion now followed by celebrities including Tom Cruise and John Travolta, awarded himself a PhD from a sham ‘diploma mill’ college he had acquired in California.

          British consulate workers in Los Angeles secretly gathered information on behalf of the government.


        • Bob Crouch
          December 9, 2015 at 1:23 pm

          I don’t doubt the existence of the badge. Perhaps you can enlighten us and explain what the accomplishments (if any) were that the badge was “awarded” for? What exactly did it mean? Is there an independent source for that? An excerpt from a “church” hagiography just won’t be credible.

          Also, it is a bit perplexing how–short of prescience–a 1947 “award” can recognize “his subsequent humanitarian works.” Hubbard did not make up “dianetics” until three years later, let alone scientology which came to LA in 1953. And I imagine those are the alleged “humanitarian works.”

          Up until then, Hubbard’s only contributions to LA life were his participation in Jack Parsons’ occult activities, adultery with Sara Northrup and Hubbard’s attempt to steal Parsons’ nest egg. Certainly, none of those would qualify as “humanitarian works that have contributed to improving the quality of life in the citizens of Los Angeles.”

    • sundaygirl
      December 9, 2015 at 10:39 am

      I once received a trophy for winning the chili cook-off at my husband’s office. That was pretty neat, and about as meaningful to the world as LRH’s 70 year old participation award.

    • madame duran
      December 12, 2015 at 5:38 pm

      “We know Alex Gibney is obsessed with his awards but we aren’t”. — Karin Pouw, Scientology spokesperson. (in reference to director Gibney’s documentary, “Going Clear: Scientology and the Prison of Belief” being potentially nominated for an Oscar)
      Yet here is Elle, boasting over one of Hubbard’s awards and exaggerating its significance as if he’s the only person in Los Angeles to ever receive such an award of distinction. Anyone else see the irony? Scientologists can’t be trusted because they talk out of both sides of their mouths.

  26. Ben Franklin
    December 9, 2015 at 9:52 am

    The founder of Scientology has one of the strangest US Navy records ever.


  27. December 12, 2015 at 5:01 pm

    This just out from Nicole Kidman–“I got married really fast and really young,” Kidman told Who magazine. “But I don’t regret that because it got me Bella and Connor, and I did have a fantastic marriage for a long period.”

    • Bob Crouch
      December 12, 2015 at 7:44 pm

      Being a young woman preyed on by the married cult boy Cruise definitely got her a lot more than she bargained for. It’s good to see that she recovered despite the cult-enforced disconnection from her children. Good for you, Nicole; life as an SP and free woman is good!

    • madame duran
      December 12, 2015 at 8:02 pm

      Maybe it was fantastic because a) her own star began to rise in Hollywood and b)Tom Cruise drifted away from Scientology (i.e. he still identified as a Scientologist but wasn’t acting as fundamentalist about it as he does now). But we all know how that fairy tale life ended, don’t we? Nicole is being classy in her responses; no vindictiveness. Too bad that those under Scientology’s spell don’t exhibit the same qualities towards her or anyone else who has left the cult.

  28. December 12, 2015 at 5:17 pm

    Nicole also said this:
    “But with Tom, it was a fantastic decade. I wish all of the people that have been involved in my life well, because it’s very important to me to be in a place of forgiveness and love.”

    • Bob Crouch
      December 12, 2015 at 7:38 pm

      Having been declared a suppressive person and alienated from her children through scientology’s enforced disconnection policy, it’s good to see that she has recovered from the cult. That she’s not handling this the scientology way but with forgiveness and love. That way she won’t allow these creeps to live in her head, no matter how they treated her. Good for her. Free from the cult, she’s a bigger being than any of them will ever be.

      • December 13, 2015 at 2:56 am

        Yeeeaaaahhhh, none of that happened.

        • Bob Crouch
          December 13, 2015 at 4:20 am

          Whenever you hear something you don’t like you say that. But it did. There are multiple people who will attest to that. They were there and you weren’t…

          • madame duran
            December 13, 2015 at 12:30 pm

            Note to lurkers:
            This is why it doesn’t pay to remain quiet when you leave the Cult of Scientology. Slinking away is exactly what the bully cult wants you to do. When you choose silence, the cult fills the void with its lies (e.g. “none of that happened”). It keeps on committing its fraud and other abuses with impunity because there is no opposition. By publicly speaking YOUR TRUTH, you retain the power of your OWN narrative, you actively challenge the cult’s lies and you no longer have to be bound by fear or guilt. By being vocal, you stand with others who have been through a similar experience and overcame adversity. You don’t have to suffer alone. Exposing Scientology’s harm is an effective WIN for justice. Do not underestimate the value of your unique story on surviving Scientology.

  29. Sergeant Pepper
    December 13, 2015 at 1:50 pm

    11 days ago Paulette Cooper Noble posted a thank you note to the author of this article. This action enraged the cult, which sent its paid minions here to spam the comments and personally attack any critic of the cult. I present it again. You can view the original, just sort by best.


    • December 13, 2015 at 3:02 pm

      You are full of BS. IFF was here first. I was posting here before I ever saw Pee Cooper’s post. She was late to the party. No one at the church noticed her because, well, she is inconsequential.

      What is interesting is how you lionize her for nothing, how you lie to prop her up. One way you do that is to fabricate an outrage that does not exist to make her look sensational. She isn’t.

      • December 13, 2015 at 3:16 pm

        PS Pee Cooper revealed that church members recently sneaked into her home again. She didn’t see them but knows they were there because they left a toenail fungus cream next to her bidet.

        • Bob Crouch
          December 13, 2015 at 3:42 pm

          You sound like a rapist mocking his victim. I appreciate your frank comments on Ms. Cooper though, as they lend invaluable insight into the cult’s depravity and inability to own up to its own atrocities. A truly sociopathic organization!

          • December 13, 2015 at 3:47 pm

            You sound like a rapist, period.

          • Bob Crouch
            December 13, 2015 at 3:54 pm

            Keep digging! You’re doing nothing but providing further evidence for the depravity of your cult and lending a clear example for how credible your assertions really are. Thanks for helping me make my point.

        • Avid Miskaridge
          December 15, 2015 at 4:17 pm

          All that money wasted on Scientology communication classes could have easily bought you a proper education at an accredited college. I would say enough to get you a double major and a doctorate. Instead, your classless, uneducated and assumptive diction paints an excellent portrait of the monsters Scientology creates. You are a creature created by the very evils of Scientology, let that sink in for a moment. How many family members and friends have you disconnected from because they knew better than to associate with some as vile as you. You are wasting your time and money; your life could be worth so much more but instead you waste it shilling for David Miscavige. When is your house foreclosing?

          • December 15, 2015 at 4:19 pm

            Cruise is doing OK, so is Travolta, and many others are doing pretty danged good. Sorry you are not.

          • Avid Miskaridge
            December 15, 2015 at 5:00 pm

            I am doing quite well fighting cult-style human rights abuses with a legitimate non-faith based organization but I am not concerned about how I am doing as I haven’t been thought-modified by a predatory cult. If you aspire to to be like those actors and take their success to be a possibility in your life then we can really see your psychology at play. When is your house foreclosing? Or have you lost it yet?

          • Bob Crouch
            December 15, 2015 at 5:25 pm

            How’s Travolta’s homosexuality going? All this auditing that promised to fix that, and he’s still a “pervert” (Hubbard’s term, not mine). And still a closeted second-class human being in scientology’s world. Except for when he writes a check, of course.

            And how about Cruise’s delusions of grandeur? He still the one who understands the human mind while nobody outside of the cult does?

          • sundaygirl
            December 15, 2015 at 5:35 pm

            Your worship of Cruise (and to a much lesser extent, Travolta) is scary. You take celebrity worship to astronomical levels. The fact that your world revolves around talking up a few celebrities on (mostly) gossip websites and trying to tear down anyone who doesn’t worship them shows just how small your world is. You and your fellow members aren’t concerned with saving the planet; if you were, you would spend your time helping people instead of glorifying movie stars. At least your organization’s critics care about exposing it for the space waste it is.

      • Bob Crouch
        December 13, 2015 at 3:46 pm

        So “inconsequential” that the “church” launched 19 law suits on three continents and a comprehensive criminal harassment campaign against a journalist who was simply doing her job and created an unbiased and restrained account of the cult. This whole effort took the “church” two decades and yielded them ZERO. Inconsequential?

        • December 13, 2015 at 3:52 pm

          Pee Cooper said she went into the Church looking for a story. Biased, much? Except she can not demonstrate even a little that she was ever in the Church. If she ever did go inside a church, she was there 10 minutes so she could say she was there and then psychoanalyze the entire Church and religion in the worst light to “prove” her hate agenda.

          She just stated in an interview that she just heard Scientologists outside her door again–and again didn’t see them but knew it was “them”–humming “They’re coming to take you away, ha. ha.”

          • Bob Crouch
            December 13, 2015 at 4:12 pm

            Actually the story came to her in the form of a former co-worker who was mentally deranged after having participated in “church” services. So, as a journalist that sparked an interest in the cult. That’s what journalists do! To somehow infer bias, or a “hate agenda” (poor victims that you are) is a complete non sequitur!

            Many journalists and academics have done so since. And to put it mildly, their findings have not been exactly positive. All that these professionals had in common was the subject of their investigation–and their inevitable harassment by cult operatives. That should tell you something!

            By your “logic,” if a dozen people go to the same restaurant and they all get food poisoning and they all get harassed by the owners not to tell anybody–it’s clearly the diners’ fault! No doubt, that must be it.